The Stablecoin Liquidity Trap

Okay guys, today two special guests. Kevin, who I've had on previously, wrote an update to a paper, which you guys should go listen to that episode, and now he has since gone to the builder side, and I have brought him back with his co-founder Mitchell to talk about what they're building and then stable coins in general.

They also both have experience in hedge funds and liquid funds. So, we're going to get a perspective on the market. So, should be an interesting conversation.

Mitchell, I let you go first because Kevin's already been on and he's already introduced himself. So, you get to give us some of your background and then we'll toss it over to Kevin a bit.

Sweet. Appreciate you having me, G. Yeah, at a high level studied economics, became an economist at the Bank of Canada, our central bank. did that for a few years, focused on their payments, CBDC, and a little bit of crypto. That was kind of during the time of Quadrria, 2018 to 2020. And then, yeah, we can talk about that if you want.

You don't hear that name very often anymore. It's kind of funny. It's like something that I'm sure Canadians know a lot about. And then a lot of early crypto people knew a lot about, but it's like now that we had SVF and FDX, it's like that was such a scam relative.

That's fascinating. Yeah. I was there when it happened and I was like, we got to do something about this. And they didn't even kind of realize the magnitude of it. And I think by current prices or like peak bull market prices, it was probably almost as big as FTX cuz I think it was like 600 million when BTC was sub 10K and maybe ETH was like 100 bucks or something like that.

So yeah, it's pretty crazy when you think the notional size versus today. But yeah, was there then went offshore and kind of fully into crypto and started working at a crypto exchange called Woo for a few years. And during that process was also at Kronos Research, the trading firm, mostly on the venture side, but did a little bit of BD for them and kind of some of the DeFi trading stuff that they were working on.

Um, and then left both of those towards the end of last year or I guess two years ago, 2024, and then started picking up Sierra kind of at the beginning of 2025 and have been here ever since.

Okay, great. And then Kevin, yeah, go ahead. Brief intro.

Sure. Yeah. So, got really full-time into crypto working build out USDC. So, that was the at center the JD between Circle and Coinbase back in 2021. From there, went on to lead liquid asset research at 21c roughly about billion dollars across all their funds right now.

And then we ended up actually spinning out the the crypto portion of that into a standalone liquid fund and that was Triton Liquid. And so I was a founding partner there and head of research for for a couple years and then eventually just got to the point where, you know, I just wanted to dive back into the building side, you know, was seeing so much of the industry and kind of where it was going, being able to underwrite and look at all these these protocols whole time.

And then I just there was just a massive gap that wanted to kind of jump in and try to fill and actually build something that can break out of the kind of the crypto circle that we've kind of been stuck in. So that that's really the why I made that that switch.

Okay. And so just one last thing, how do you two know each other?

This will come back in a little bit as we kind of explain what we're building. But we were introduced by the the founders of Open Trade, which is kind of a yield as a service, institutional grade kind of yield platform. And so I worked with them back at center. Um so we're building out USC it is. And then Mitch through his his time they they had invested in and used Open Trade for their products.

And so it's just kind of a natural I guess meshing of worlds.

Yeah. Okay. Makes sense. Okay. So then yeah dive in. What is Sierra and like what is the problem being solved here?

So I think at a high level what are what is Sierra? It's a liquid yield token is kind of the definition we use. So never use the term stable coin. We don't kind of represent it as a stable coin in the bucket.

Well actually first liquid yield tokens what we kind of define them as is a token. So it has a secondary market. It's liquid. It's backed by stable coins. The reserves or kind of the backing of these tokens are deployed in some general yield strategy. Could be DeFi, could be basis, could be RWAS, some combination of those.

And then at least part of the yield gets passed through back to the end token holder. So like I would put Athena's SUSD in this bucket. I would put USDIS, the staked version, Syrup, USDC and Tether, the Maple products cap. There's probably like 20 of these protocols now and and a lot of them kind of pre10 and through even post1010 the big crash in October they still call themselves yield bank stable coins which which we really kind of don't like that terminology and so we frame it as a liquid yield token and then Sierra the token capital Sierra is like the canonical liquid yield token issued by the protocol we can come back to this later but in the future we envision many LTS liquid yield tokens issued by the protocol and Sierra is really just the the first representation of that.

Yeah. So, okay then what is the like you talk about these like yield strategies in the background. What do those entail and yeah like what what is the big kind of big unlock? Maybe also you can explain this relative to kind of the other ones that you just mentioned. Obviously a very competitive space stable coins in general but then also these versions that have various you know yield sources some like the GPUs or whatever that you talked about like so yeah like how do you differentiate yourself maybe?

Yeah. So the the biggest is is our flexibility and what we we can allocate to and so CR being the can our kind of canonical version of it. Our opinionated version of what you know a really risk adjusted liquid yield token should be. But then also and any issuance partners that want to come in and launch they they kind of have a menu of just kind of underwritten quality like blue chip yield sources that that that they can tap into.

And so so through through our our infrastructure, we can go to any protocol on any chain RWA basis. Like frankly, any yield source that is hooked up to stable coin rails in in the world, we we can tap into. And so like obviously we're not going to be in a million things, but it just really opens up the design space of what we can we can bring on chain. And then a big differentiator is not using that kind of you know state unstate the kind of dual token model.

Yeah. Yeah. Automatic yield. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So a lot of them like they they they have maybe 40 50% of their actual holders earning yield and then the other half is subsidizing net yield taking on the same risk that the entire protocol is taking on without any of the rewards.

And there's no real use case for those stable coins and you just see just like incentives dumped on on those. it just completely wipes out the governance token side and it's just not a sustainable model. Um, and so ours we don't have that kind of dual token model. It's just it's a single token like price updates every 15 minutes on chain as yield comes through and 100% of depending on the liquidity bar if you want.

So 95 to 100% of the capital in the strategy is actually deployed earning yield paid through to 100% of depositors rather than a subset. And so there's just like these efficiencies and it's kind of like the V 2.0 know of a lot of these in our mind.

Yeah. Go ahead.

Oh, sorry. Court was just going to add on in terms of like the actual types of strategies backing it, you kind of have generally speaking a few buckets. So like most of them tend to be what we call monolithic, meaning they have just like a single backing yield source. So like basis or overlized lending.

What we kind of dabble in is basis we're adding to the portfolio overcrowded lending through many different platforms. So right now we use Morpho and A boiler will soon be there potentially Camino on the Salona side and then we're exploring doing some Pendle PTS but not really doing kind of the looping that some of the more tokenized hedge fund products tend to get into. So just kind of the pts themselves without leverage and and tapping into those fixed rates and then kind of RWAS, treasuries, commercial papers about to come into the portfolio as well as potentially some forms of private credit and trade finance.

Um really trying to blend a mix of liquidity risk, credit risk, uh duration risk, all these kind of things that you have to be exposed to to earn higher than the treasury rate, but in a way that I think is still providing a risk adjusted return for the end holder. And we basically have a risk framework that underwrites each of these yield sources which then assigns effectively whether or not the pro the protocol can allocate to it and if it's allocating what's the basically the maximum threshold that we can allocate to and I think that's the general framework that's extremely flexible but still kind of constrained from a risk point of view and then also fully transparent from endolder point of view.

Yeah, it seems that so I saw you guys use Morpho for example, which definitely has I would say maybe stepped is up there in terms of like perceived quality, let's put it that way. It seems like kind of what you're doing in a sense is so like I think of Gauntlet and how they kind of curate these vaults and what you guys are doing is abstracting even that layer away.

Correct. and saying like you don't even need to be depositing these individual vaults with like some risk parameter setup like let's just tokenize this so that all of this is abstracted away. Is this like a reasonable take?

That's that that's you you nailed that on the head, right? And because Oh yeah. Yeah. No, if you think about it, right, like the the curators, they're doing a great job of managing the risk and and the vaults they're set up like they can allocate into multiple markets and all that and they're they're abstracting that, but from the say the fintech integration side, they still have to, you know, wire up the same contracts like they still have to make those same integrations and all that.

And it's and the power of crypto and the power of tokenization is just get rid of that. And so what what we're able to do is just like any chain, any protocol, we can just abstract all that and all all the the kind of the businesses, the companies that are that are using us have to do is just swap in and it's easy. Um and so they don't have to take the the the permissions and the contract like the same contract risks and execution risk that even going directly into vaults.

Now, now naturally there's trade-offs in terms of, you know, the the token design and the liquidity versus, you know, just tap in and out of Morpho. Um, but our portfolio is constructed to maximize liquidity. So, the vast majority of it is available on demand while there's some longer term stuff that's maybe a day or two to get out of just for a little elevated yield.

What do you Okay, so that on that note like 1010 brought and I don't know it may have been kind of festering prior to 1010. I think it certainly was, but 10en seemed to bring some of this into light, which was some of the problems with these morpho vaults that were lower. I don't I'm not going to name names because I honestly forget the names. I would if I remembered stream there was Yeah. Oh, okay. Stream. Yeah, stream. But was Yeah. Okay. So, stream was one. Then then there was some other like hedge fund managed whatever like doing some basis trade, but it really wasn't that.

In any case, the the thing is is that like in your mind part of the problem currently is that it's still very difficult to discern from the top tier risk curators, if you will, versus these lower tiers and like it seems still that you're like streaming obviously a great example, but even some of these other lower tier I think vaults people were like, "Wait, what happened right after 1010?"

I think there's there's two parts to this probably. One is like everything's being commoditized and there's only so many things you can do. So there's an element of like chasing yield to kind of differentiate on yield and I think that pre1010 got pushed to an extreme and then the ones who kind of like took it too far died or kind of like took such a big haircut that they're not really operating and then the ones who kind of have survived to this point are more prudent and maybe weren't optimizing for like the highest yield without kind of considering the risks. So that's kind of one part of it.

And then the other part I think that's less far along is really transparency. So some some protocols I think are really good at this, right? But then some of them are maybe like not as good still in terms of like where the yield comes from. What is the kind of token holding? How's that portfolio changed over time?

I mean Elixir, which also blew up, they famously kind of changed what they were doing. And I I'm not clear. I I wasn't participating in the protocol at the time, but I'm not really sure how obvious that was to the users going into 1010. Like did they really know they had as much exposure to stream as they had or even like some of the and I'm not saying this pjoratively, but like like Midas instead of protocol where they have the different M tokens where each one has its own strategy like it's not always clear maybe with some of those tokens or similar types of projects where the actual reserves are sitting.

Um what is the curator doing? Some other protocols do a lot of stuff offchain to generate yield and they don't necessarily show that very well. A protocol that's that's helping a lot here is accountable. I'm not sure if you're familiar with those guys.

Yeah, they're they're really cool in the sense that they partner with LT projects or yield bearing stable coin projects to try to bring transparency to what they're doing with the reserves. So like I think you'll see in the next 3 to 6 months a lot more effort on the transparency side basically showing like what they're holding and to the extent that it's not on chain third party kind of attestations or reporting around those assets actually being there and and the what they're saying they're doing is actually matching what's being done.

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What are current yields on chain?

Yeah, I mean following the the the week we just had, they're they're crushed, right? And so your your kind of standard money markets, your your kind of high twos, low threes right now that the time of of recording, you can reach up to, you know, on a risk adjusted basis, you get into the fours on some a lot of those you start getting heavy incentives paid out to in order to juice those.

But and then that's just in your kind of like, you know, your lending markets. And then if you go into, you know, basis, I think right now basis is negative for pretty much every single major across every exchange. So that's that's crushed you. Um and and then you got Pendle markets and so those those are holding up just because of that fixed yield nature. And so that that's that's why Pendle is such a powerful protocol. It's because they're able to to do that.

And now as long as you're you're taking the exposure with to a quality project then you know those have held up reasonably well. Um but for the most part I mean with the carnage we've seen following the you know the selloff there there's not as as kind of quality yields as there was maybe even three four weeks ago.

Yeah. because okay so from my perspective I was I guess lucky enough to have been around more so toward the tail end but in DeFi summer and especially with yeah some of the like all ones at that time and those yields were insane right like yeah you could I don't think people know this now because this industry moves so fast but like early on in like Binance Smart Chain days you could put USD DC and USDT in a pool and get like a,000%.

And they would launch these pools like every 3 days and you could just deposit into the new one. And this is a joke that I bring up like frequently the reward token at the time was going up. Like it it went up instead of down and it was insane. So anyways, my point with all this is saying that that seemed whether or not I had like sophisticated, you know, risk model certainly not the case. That seemed like, oh, okay, I think this is like pretty like has a fairly high expected value here because I could get if I put stables into five different of these ponzies, even if I get rents on one, the yield will be compensated on a lot of the rest of these. I'm oversimplifying this, but my point is now for the past three years really, it's just not very alluring to me.

And it's for fairly obvious reasons, which is smart contract risk, bug risk. I have no idea what I'm getting myself into. And it's not the the if I mean, if I want to be precise here, right? Like the EV of this does not seem particularly high to me at this juncture. Now, the counterpoint to this is okay, we're maturing as an industry. People are better at looking at smart contracts. It's becoming more institutionalized. There's back stops, right? Like people realize this now.

But I guess all of this diet tribe is to say that I haven't paid attention to this so closely really for quite a while. But I don't know. I'd have to think about and do research as like what yield I would want to go onchain versus T bills or some type of like juiced options in my broker like you know type. Yeah. Like I I I just I find it difficult right from from my perspective. So I'm curious like you're trying to sell this. what do you think is the you know type of yield you want to sell to institutions and and why versus going and sticking it on you know a typical brokerage?

Yeah. So there there's really two answers to that, right? And so like on a risk adjusted kind of yield basis like you're you're you're pretty much bang on there, right? And in a lot of these cases, you are seeing onchain yields below T- bills and and so in our risk framework, we that's like we set our floor at that T- bill because you know once you start adjusting for you know contract risk, exploit risk, all liquidity risk, all these different factors, you just can't reasonably allocate to that.

Now, where where we're where we're trying to, you know, find that that quality yield is going to, you know, the Wall Street guys that are coming in and that's that's with our platform tapping into the RWAs and going into more of BAT and and the way we we really try to package it is it's like a one-click exposure into a diversified riskadjusted stable coin compatible like yield package. and and rather than having to choose and underwrite a single market and just route in and out of that which the risks just go up like there's this this is still this funny thing in crypto where like diversification is seen as like a negative um and like you know go to traditional finance like diversification is you know you know Robert says like one of the you know it's a free lunch right it's one of the only free lunches out there and so that's a way to to re reduce risk and we can also because we can tap into these yield sources push up those yields a little bit are um and but we're not going to be chasing like 8 n% yields and I think people in crypto have been so conditioned me yeah like to like I unless I'm being 19% on this like it's not worth it but it's like the amount of risk you have to take to to get that 19% is is insane and if anyone tries to like tell you differently then I don't know what to tell you those just are not sustainable real yields and and as stable coins become more institutionalized you're going to see that compression happen.

So, so that's like one side of it. The other is there's a US- centric view of this and then there's kind of a global view of this and so more compelling selling point to me like that.

So, sorry to interrupt but yeah that is where it does resonate at least more intuitively with me is that there are people around the world who don't have direct access to T bills or all the types of different you know products that we have that are functionally money market funds plus you know some variable rate whatever it may be. So that that that makes sense.

Yeah. And then that's where we're seeing a ton of our demand. So like the the enterprise clients that that are, you know, starting to come on and we've only been live for a few weeks and the demand is and receptiveness to what we're offering is is huge. But a lot of them in Latin America, Africa, Asia, like all the all these people that have like real organic stable coin users and demand for US dollars need these yield packages and they can come in and like there's a world where we can provide them a a quality and I don't want to say like investment grade because that's misleading, but it's like a an enterprisegrade package and yield solution that these guys can tap into that they've never had access to before.

And and so that's really the value prop that we're we're kind of putting into the market and and that's resonating with these, you know, payments companies, these fintex exchanges. They're really really open to that. A lot of like I think people don't well crypto people don't realize this, but small and mediumsized businesses in the United States are actually pretty good at sweeping cash into yield bearing accounts. I think there's this notion because retail is accustomed to using our terrible banking system whereby it doesn't matter how much we, you know, deposit, we can deposit $20 million into a bank account, we're going to get, you know, 10 BIPS.

It and it's wild. Conversely, yeah, small businesses actually do have small mediumsiz up to obviously like large scale corporations do have access to this and they tend to Yeah. Actually, I think that because retail is not like very, you know, privy to this information or or the this type of structure, but it does definitely makes sense with regards to businesses outside the United States.

Yeah. Oh, sorry, Court. Just what I was going to add here. I think like the form factor is something we talk about a lot matters. So, what I mean by that is like a vault versus a token. So, there's tons of great products out there. I mean, like think about the Kraken retail example that just got announced last week, right? uh as a user on the platform, you deposit USDC in or Tetherin even or maybe even Bitcoin, but focusing on stables. You deposit stables into a vault, they're like locked in there and that kind of limits the interoperability with like payments use cases of stable coins, treasury management like you just mentioned as well.

So like when I think of form factor, I think of like an ERC20 with a bit of a few kind of extensions, but effectively an ERC20 which works with any custodian by default. Everyone's familiar with holding tokens and having the embedded yield there makes all these other kind of use cases where stable coins are historically used now accessible for like liquid yield tokens. So I mean like the simplest retail one is instead of holding Tether USDC and spending your Etherfi card or Avalanche card or any of these payment cards, you could hold a token like Sierra or something similar, generate like four to six maybe 7% yield intrinsically and then still spend it anywhere that the payment card is accepted at the point of sale.

Or like as fintech with treasury management holding stables, you could just sweep it into a you're probably not going to off-ramp and hold treasuries. You can maybe hold tokenized treasuries, pay some fees, and basically get the risk-free rate. But I see these kind of use cases where you can earn two to 300 bips above treasuries, but have the simplicity from like an operational point of view of just holding a token. Um, that's kind of the sweet spot where it's maybe not built for you with an interactive broker account or like the sophistication to do some crazy stuff on chain. But yeah, those kind of less sophisticated users or operational people who have other constraints.

What do you make of RWA's coming on chain and the quality? Mostly when people said RWAS since Yes. since the term was really I think came about it really 90 to 95% of the time just meant T- billills and there wasn't really any dis like so it's kind of funny um it just meant tokenized T bills and actually like key bills specifically like ironically it really didn't have much more meaning than that now we're seeing more discussions about private credit and real estate these types of things give me yeah I have more questions on this but give me or just kind of overarching view of what RWA's look like in their current form coming on chain.

Yeah, I think rwa.xyz is like a good starting point to kind of see the the transformation. Generally speaking, like you said, historically, it's been T bills and specifically US treasuries. Now, I think you're going to get multicurrencies for like government debt. you're going to get like other debt that has like higher credit risk. So like the commercial paper, corporate bonds, and then you're going to get the less liquid stuff like the private credits of the world. And then I think you're going to get other like asset backed securities or asset back debt that that isn't related to a specific company. It's more related to like I don't know maybe credit card debt or we we spoke to a project recently doing auto loans. So you you'll see kind of different types of secured debt.

And then I think what matters a ton is really the underwriting and knowing like underwriting from the point of view of someone allocating to these things. It's like what rights do you have? Like what is what do you actually own? Like how how can you redeem in the event of like part of the underlying loans um defaulting or having some sort of issues? How does that pass through back to the people holding the tokenized versions? It's not so much relevant from a pure yield point of view, but I think a lot of the existing tokenized stocks are not like actually tokenized stocks. So like that whole kind of tokenized RWA is still way off as well, but that's a bit more tangential.

No, I think because the reason I ask is we see these announcements now of Apollo and Blackstone and my well obviously I kind of probably am conditioned to be quite skeptical but I'm like extremely skeptical because my first thought is that these are almost this is like the definition of adverse selection to me. It's like these and and particularly with some of this private credit stuff where it's very illquid and they haven't wanted to for the past 10 years mark this stuff to market and now it's like oh everyone in crypto gets very excited about this from the oh we're bringing the world on chain and you know I sit here and look at this I'm like guys it's because this is a way to you you know, find and I'm generalizing here. I'm sure this is not the case with all of them, but this is like this is the buyer of last resort in many ways.

And it's it doesn't again strike me as some obvious opportunity, at least when I see, you know, some 2019 vintage private credit fund tokenizing themselves on chain. I'm like, oh god, stay away from that obviously. you know, so I'm kind of interested like what your thoughts are maybe on I don't know like how retail or just even you know proumers would address like some of this stuff and whether or not it's worthwhile to touch. Seems like what you guys are trying to do is curate a lot of this which is of value. Um, maybe you're not even touching a lot of that stuff yet, but just, you know, outside of what you guys are doing, I'm kind of interested just a lot. Well, there's a lot of private credit discussion obviously with all this infrastructure build out and yeah, it's concerning.

No, and and that is totally fair. And I mean, if you just go back to kind of basics, there's a reason why a lot of these products have been confined for like institutional and kind of accredited investors. It's an entirely different underwriting risk structure. They're like you have to lock up your funds for 7 to 10 years and be able to underwrite and have that liquidity and just it's a different framework that law of retail that you're just buying on you know on Fidelity. It's a very different very different thing, right? I think the onus is going to be on the issuers and and the the firms, the funds coming into that to really be be careful with how they market it and how they do that because I I'm sure everyone shares your kind of cynicism a little bit there that like they're just looking at that last marginal buyer to to tap in and like Well, I think a lot of a lot of people are are exalting about this. They're like, "Oh, we're going to get access to like only through crypto do we get access to Blackstone?" I'm like, "Oh, god no." You know what I mean? They're like, you know, funds that were only accessible through accredit investors prior is like just textbook volatility laundering for, you know, endowments and now why do you think they're giving it to you guys? Come on. You know, but I don't know. So, yeah, I I Yeah, just one more. I there there's kind of two ways to look that I think that the initial offerings like like these are still like proof of concepts at the end of the day. Like these guys like for Apollo like their a credit it's a small little fund. They're a trillion dollar firm and they're they're dipping like their small toe in right now. just did like test the rails, test the liquidity and all that. And I'm they're not putting their like flagship funds out here to to to kind of do that. And and you know that's fair is like kind of in an early stage of the go to market and and so but I think where a lot of people get excited about is like which is what this means generally right in terms of like we've been I I know you your your whole thing is like you guys been building open source core just to have like Robin Hood come and like make all the money off it right and and there's I think everyone's you know excited that like this is a validation of the technology that like these these trillion dollar shops are devoting resources and people and programs and hiring and like moving their assets on chain, right? And it's a validation of that. Um, but as an investor, I mean, the onus is on you too to like underwrite these f these funds. And this is kind of also the problem with a lot of these like any secondary really like OTC deals like you there's such an information mismatch and like an asymmetry there that like your average retail investor and this is part of the reason why and we can get this like why the token markets are as broken as as they are too. These are like long-term hold underwriting venture kind of investments that people are treating like you know like Google stock like and they're trying to like shoehorn the these risk frameworks into these liquid these liquid tokens but really the the the actual just nature of these investments are long-term holds and so there I think as this marriage happens there's going to be a little bit of volatility and some issues here but fast forward five years what does this mean for blockchain tech in the industry and then you We we'll see how this this this advances. But I think that's why I mean from from my perspective there's a lot of excitement there and then if you don't have access to these investments it's like oh this is a whole new world. A little bit worried about what what might happen just it's a different again a different underwriting but I I think that's that's really where that's going to go. And sorry Mitch you were you were also you want to say something there?

Yeah, the only thing I was going to add is that through open trade, we have the ability to basically off-ramp stables and like buy the actual like more quality version offchain. So, I think we're we're a bit insulated in the sense that we could pick and choose the more quality ones that we can underwrite onchain and then skip the ones that to your point Guart definitely have adverse selection and are a little a little dodgy perhaps and then just go directly to the more kind of off-chain equivalents. uh as an example like one issue with the offchain equivalent is the high minimums they have as well. So like that's kind of a benefit of Sierra as well is that you can access these products which are tend to be reserved for more institutional investors but still can be wrapped kind of through Sierra for the common person buying a 100 bucks on chain.

Yeah, that makes sense. We're talking about bringing all of this onchain. What does this mean in practice? And like yeah, may maybe we'll just start there like what does this mean to you bringing the world on chain? The reason I ask is because so I saw this interesting back and forth the other day where somebody was saying you know I know like right I've kind of also I'm blaming this on somebody else but this is a view that I felt so which is that