Stani Kulechov: The Aave Token-Centric Future Is Here (...And What's Coming Next)

The only way to get DeFi to mainstream is by building experiences that feel like fintech. So abstracting away wallets, gas fees, networks, and being able to link your bank accounts into an app and deposit in a few seconds is the experience that passes the fintech test.

It feels like a unification of labs and DAO, and through the proposal, there's several points that I think we want to get into. One of them is that Avid Labs is making an ask, and it just kind of shows that the future of these token markets are going to start to look a lot more like public equities, right? Quarterly earnings calls, quarterly reports, investor relations, capital markets teams.

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Stani, welcome back to the show, man. Good to see you. Big week.

Good to see you, everyone. And happy Friday.

Happy Friday, man. Congrats on the proposal, A will win.

Thank you. I think interesting times in DeFi at the moment and also for A and also A labs as a team, but also where the whole ecosystem is going and the potential of A and DeFi for the future. I think we're gonna probably talk about it a little bit more.

I think just some context setting, right? We've kind of been going through this kind of sophistication and maturation phase of the industry broadly, right? And I think there's certain token designs that were prohibited due to regulatory regimes previously. I talked about imagine seeing Andre Cronier's valueless governance token medium article be written today as a new token structure, right? And we talked about returning to fundamentals, we talked about this idea of the revenue meta which is kind of a meme, but it also works in terms of like, oh, this is where the space is going towards cash flowing tokens towards this new idea of actually unifying token and equity.

Why don't you just break down the A labs proposal, A will win to the DAO and why this matters for A next phase of growth?

No, I agree on the landscape of the tokens is a very interesting inflection point. The **AV win** proposal is that has been for us a way to try to think about how does the token value capture work?

There's obviously when you go all the way back to the early days, the project itself was funded by an ICO back in 2017 when we were Eatland at that time and very experimental project, one of the first DeFi protocols, first lending protocol at that point and more of like a peer-to-peer model. At that point, the idea of token token economics, token value capture and whole DeFi space was completely different and obviously over the years things have been evolved quite concretely.

When we think about at that point when things started off for Eatland, our main idea was that how do we actually are able to build this infrastructure that could be connected to any sort of use case in lending and down the line could become a backbone for financial systems. And the same way as for example the pro internet protocols like IP and HTTP are servicing everyone and be as little as opinated as possible.

So effectively everything started with experimentation and overlaps. Back then as the EANET team we were the contributors of this systems and over the years obviously 2020 came we launched the first version of the of a protocol which was fundamentally very different what we did in the past. And then followed DeFi and that 2020 year was fundamentally important for us not just because the protocol itself started to get traction protocol market fit but because that was when a lot of these initial governance functionalities started to be built into the system.

So at that point AIP1 was something that we released and AIP1 also defined effectively what the token governance is for the a protocol, what does it do, what's the purpose and also what is the value capture of the protocol and it's stated effectively that any sort of protocol revenue that's that that revenue that is created the protocol takes portion of that revenue into the Dow Treasury and then the Dow Treasury can be used to fund different sort of initiatives whether that's further development of the protocol further research and research as well or paying for service provider such as for example risk management and other services that effectively add value into the protocol.

So it kind of opened the doors for the community to come and contribute and that year also is when the DeFi summer was peing. So you had this interesting yields on chain at the same time when you know it was COVID interest rates were low everywhere in the traditional world. And then you had these governance tokens on top of it that protocols are were giving for users ability to own these piece of pieces of in infrastructure.

So coming out of there and over time labs has been a fundamentally important participant and kind of permanent contributor in the a ecosystem building some of the infrastructure from like the global stable coin of a V4 and so forth. But one sort of big thing for us as a big kind of a push back has been always the regulatory uncertainty.

Over the past few years, I think it's been extremely hard to be a DeFi builder whether it's someone who is in in US or in Europe or any anywhere any part of the world. And we were experiencing years of risk that came out of that uncertainty and aggressive policies by the SEC to pretty much almost every single DeFi protocol that was out there and that sort of pushed a lot of the the innovation back and a lot of the adoption back and I feel like that also affected the the whole growth of DeFi.

So if you look at the existing growth phase where where DeFi is today let's say it's in in total 120 billion last year peaked at 220 or so billion and going few years back it was 200 billion. A lot of that sort of limitations came from the fact that it was extremely risky for a lot of DeFi teams to actually contribute and push push the innovation and push the growth further.

The **a will win** proposal effectively establishes a really really important part of the whole story is that the labs you know the labs as a as a contributor builds products and wants to be self sustainable and wants to create a product layer that then acquires users and then increases the economical activity of the of a protocol.

One of the things that has been really challenging is to understand that well where does the value capture go? Does it go into the a token or the the the AV apps in form of equity? And the second question is that so when you get funding let's say into the labs to to basically grow these products and compete with the biggest Finex in the world and grow the protocol at the same time where kind of the focus is going to go and how to ensure that everyone who is contributing growing the protocol are thinking and focusing on the other token and being token and going back and forth and there's a lot of discussions in the in the past months about this topic and and and DeFi in general D5 protocols and D5 teams had to rethink about how to think about token value capture and tokconomics and how to go away of this model of like these are just governance tokens you know valueless tokens but actually these are fundamentally important businesses that are being built now and could be empowering the whole financial infrastructure over a long-term period and how do we basically ensure that that is very clear and that's where the **a will win** proposal comes into place where we from a labs we want to show a extremely strong commitment but also alignment with the avi token holders and ensure that the work that we are doing is seen going as a value capture at a 100% rate on anything that's basically we're building on the product layer directly into the DAO.

So it takes the AIP1 which basically gives a mandate that the protocol generates revenue and that revenue goes into the avid treasury into also that products that that are being built let's say outside of the the protocol by ava labs 100% of that revenue is going to the avid treasury and that is fundamentally a big thing because it unlocks a completely new streams, not just a one stream, but streams of revenue outside of the blending business model into new sorts of business models and also on the product layer.

That is a big benefit for what this proposal actually does for the a ecosystem.

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I think that traces through the entire history leading from AIP1 all the way through to a will win which is transcended several eras of DeFi. And you know we were also early contributors of DeFi. You may not remember a grants was actually the first the first dollar that the the rollup made way back in 2021 I think for doing DeFi education. And so you know we've kind of grown as A's grown and as the space has grown and I think there was a tremendous effort to decentralize early on could have been due to regulatory we there was also a strong belief that decentralized governance was the right path to organize a community working on an underlying protocol layer and we were fighting forces of centralization and intermediaries.

You know there was a lot of things that happened in the middle which which you explained in AIP1 and now we find ourselves at a point in time where we're we're seeing the the decentralization that spread a lot of people and things out and diffused all of this operationally. We're seeing a lot of it consolidate and come back. And here at the world we've been talking about this unification and that's really what the proposal feels like.

It feels like a unification of labs and DAO and through the proposal there's several points that I think we want to get into. One of them is that you know Aid Labs is making an ask. I believe the ask is I want to make sure that we we get this right but it is for a certain amount of USDC and a certain amount of A and so you know if the DAO is to you know commit to this ask and and uh you know provide this USDC and this a to a labs in exchange for 100% of the revenue generated via the protocol and some of the other products from A. It almost feels like, you know, the Dow is kind of buying out the labs.

So, could you unpack the is this the right way to think about this? The it's this exchange of money now for money later. And you know, if if we get into the numbers here, I believe the revenue that we saw in the in the in the thread that A posted was upwards of hund00 million throughout all of uh I believe it's per year throughout all of these a products. The the cash and a that the labs entity is asking for 75,000 a at these prices roughly 8 to10 million. It's a significant portion of the Dow's a holdings. And then there's USDC of which the A Dow holds $161 million. And it's asking for 40 the A labs is asking for 42.5 million of stable coins, 25 million in primary, 17.5 million in milestone grants.

So this is a substantial ask, but it seems as if the A DAO would recoup this investment in a short amount of time, perhaps even one year or less. Is that the right way to think about this proposal? And can you just verify this math that you know this this investment that the Dow makes in labs would get recouped in a year or two?

There's of course there's different stable coins. not everything is in the USDC. So there's different proportions of that and assets and typically stable coins in the treasury are also earning as well. And something to think about is that when it comes to the a treasury effectively it's not a static treasury like in many of these Dows.

Throughout the years over the past eight years we've been able to effectively build a protocol and an infrastructure both both a and a native go stablecoin into a place where it's revenue generating very few dows and very few protocols are in the same state as as for example now but fundamentally that means there's ongoing revenue. There's a one important part of that is that the protocol has usage and it has users and that is something that the a labs develop protocol layer is supporting and driving that traffic and experience and so forth and the way we think about it is that our original approach was that maybe actually the the products of the other labs can actually be self- sustained and developed outside of the protocol.

That's a way to effectively grow the products fund raise and really compete on user acquisition at the same level as for example a lot of these fintexs are doing. But at the same time you get this sort of same problem of value capture which is fundamentally an a place where you have to think about is is the value going for example into the equity or into the token.

The way to solve this is kind of like an interesting and a little bit similar model as UNISOP unification proposal. So there's some ingredients there but a bit different model is applied here. So in unisoft unification proposal they are foregoing all the application fees to basically drive traffic into the protocol and also monetize on the protocol level.

In the **a will win** proposal, the the the trade effectively here is that the protocol itself is earning and the protocol is creating revenue and with good treasury management that revenue is managed well and treasury is managed well. But at the same time as Aalaps are is building these products it generates additional revenue and then the idea here is that that additional revenue is now at 100% rate directed to the Avidal treasury.

That effectively means that the the the as the products are growing which is effectively a app and a app is our new offering that is fully tailored to consumers because we believe that the only way to get DeFi to mainstream is by building experiences that feel like fintech. So abstracting away wallets, gas fees, networks and being able to link your bank account into a app and deposit in few seconds is the experience that is passes the the sort of a fintech test.

Then obviously there is a pro which is about the sophisticated DeFi experience but also close connectivity to banking. So you can pull funds in additional security on the wallet management and you can connect your own wallets. And the third product is the a kit which is more on the API SDK level enabling integrations of the AV protocol in a safe and secure enterprisegrade level for for example FinTex and traditional institutions.

Then there's obviously the the horizon market which is a RWA play that we think is is going to go grow substantially. So the way to think about it is that these products will effectively grow the revenue for a because we grow the user bases user activities and that grows the economical activity for the protocol going directly to the consumers servicing sophisticated DeFi users and then enterprise sales for Finex and by foregoing the revenue of these products that could be as big as any sort of fintech in the future.

The trade here is effectively that the avid funds a budget annually for a labs not just build and maintain these products at a extremely high quality but also to to grow these products and invest into customer acquisition. So the way to think about here is that the DAO effectively is investing into protocol innovation R&D and product innovation and product growth and that expands the revenue capture surface and also the the the velocity of of revenue over the upcoming years.

Fundamentally what we're saying is that aaps will keep building forprofit products and expand the profit surface but all the profit is going to go to one place which is the a token and by doing that that creates that removes the uncertainty between value capture and that makes things more simple for anyone who are thinking about the ava token or thinking about thinking how are thinking how do how the relationship with the labs and the the protocol the DAO and the token holders is is is structured and I think that's that's a really good model because what I'm very excited about is also to look into the traditional public markets and think about what kind of things we can bring from there to actually make tokens that are running incredibly potential businesses on chain and how to improve those governance mechanisms for the token holders and I think that is a really interesting topic as well.

I mean I think the industry wants tokens with clear value acral mechanisms undeniably. I also think that this proposal from the more institutional folks that I've just spoken to about it in the last 24 hours makes the token much more investable from an institutional standpoint which I think is very important and it just kind of shows that the future of these token markets are going to start to look a lot more like public equities right quarterly earnings calls quarterly reports investor relations capital markets teams onetoone engagement with large holders you know more top- down hierarchical decision-m on product as a as a competitive advantage just kind of just this different regime is enabling a different structure.

You've talked about kind of how this proposal will allow you to go and compete with some of the largest fintech applications with your full product suite. You also you also talked about the continued funding development and execution from the the lab side. I'm curious how A V4 pertains to this, right? Why this is such a central part of the proposal and what V4 unlocks from the A perspective as it pertains to you know the token being the central part a token-entric future why that why V4 creates a interesting dynamic for the token.

No, you're absolutely right also in the sense that you know the best execution environment for ideas and businesses is typically startups and scaleups where you have a very little friction you can move really fast and that type of an environment is where the products should be. So decentralized governance govern governance works really well when you want to add resiliency additional accountability and transparency and that's where basically in other protocol's case you have this system where every sort of a parameter that goes into the protocol asset listing has a prevetted process and that ensures that end to end the protocol is safe and secure and that's why a as a protocol is a leader because the risk is managed really well and there's checks and balances when it comes to the the proto player.

You can't really use decentralized governance voting and you know for example what kind of a features are should be voted into an application or what kind of things should be on on a landing page and whatnot. you have to operate in a sort of autonomy, product autonomy and people who build the best products in the world you know and now and in the past and you know if if you think about like Steve Jobs and and and a lot of these icons they have a lot of product auton autonomy so there needs to be this sort of independent decision- making of how and what needs to be built on the application layer and iterate quickly and and take risks.

One of the things that I'm really a big fan of is is that we never know what sort of initiative or a product or a feature actually is going to be a groundbreaking feature. So, for example, when we were developing the a v3 we added one interesting feature which is called e- mode. So it's sort of an efficiency modes where you could get a really high loan to value ratio between assets that are corre correlated and that works really well for users that are looping these assets and that created a lot of net deposits for the other protocol.

When we were brainstorming about this feature and implemented it, we didn't understand exactly the impact and it turns out it was a really good impact and some features have less impacts but the main point is that you never know beforehand. So you have to keep innovating and iterating and AV4 follows the same sort of innovation pattern that we've done almost the past decade where we build things but we build in a way in a in a structure where we can actually add new add new products and and features and test them out.

V4 is kind of like a combination of the best of the both both worlds. So we have what B3 exactly does really well at the moment but also adding a sort of modular architecture with the hubs and spokes where hubs are where the liquidity is concentrated and spokes are borrowing configurations where the hubs are giving credit lines to those spokes and spokes can be any sort of even custom implementation.

What it really enables is that you get the same sort of a experience as you get today but you can bootstrap really quickly new collaterals and use cases with proper risk management by giving new credit lines from from the hub and I think av4 is something that is going to be a gamecher as a sort of a baseline but what I'm even more interested is that if you look at DeFi today and we're sitting at 120 billion TVL mark as an example and picked at 200 and few years ago it was at a 200 billion peak.

What that really tells us is that DeFi has been able to prove itself really well through resiliency. On 10 of 10 of last year we liquidated over 200 million worth of collateral in in in in the time frame of minutes and we liquidated over a week ago half a billion worth of collateral in a period of a week. So these crypto assets has and lending against Bitcoin and Ethereum has proven sort of a resiliency.

If you can use this type of infrastructure for the most sort of dynamic assets that means that you kind of have battle tested the infrastructure and with a v4 we can actually keep expanding that use case. So whenever there's interesting native primitives that are coming into from any any part of DeFi, we're able to iterate quickly on board them without taking excessive risk. And at the same time we know that we need to bring all the value into onchain and then that comes from tokenization which can be supported with av4 but also in the future the lending for example might not have any sort of a tokenization but you need to have some sort of a custom adapters to adapt to that use case so that's where the monolith the the modular model really plays a a a very significant role so I'm very bullish on expanding a into lending against traditional assets like what we're doing with Horizon lending against RWBAs but also I think that if you look at where things are going over the next sort of decades you know we we have AI we have a we basically have almost unlimited amount of intelligence at anyone's disposal we're going to have extremely cheap energy from solar. We're going to have batteries. We're going to have robotics.

We're going to have a lot of a lot of resources around everyone that really makes labor abundant, intelligence abundant, energy abundant and really kind of creates this sort of a new world. Getting towards that transaction transition we need financing right so if you look at the next maybe 50 years if we are able to use a as a protocol to finance sort of the future maybe we will grow it bring it faster by 10 20 30 years and that is for me personally more interesting than you know tokenizing anything that can be already traded in a traditional exchange or mortgages and so forth because that is basically the future we want to bet on and for a vision going for the next decades you know we want to have a futurep proof vision where a lot of the collateral is coming from basically these types of high quality yield sources and that can be distributed through the a pro the a kit all the way to the whole user bases so there's a lot of connecting dots between the product layer a v4 and there's going to be a lot of quick wins but the long-term horizon here is that a should be used effectively to to finance the whole kind of a global transition into this new world we're we're starting to head towards.

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Estani and I think you make a really important point. We've seen decentralized organizations become oified for better or worse in the past, right? You look at Bitcoin, it's effectively oified. You look at Ethereum, it operates on you know timelines that are very very long. Lending is still a very active and hyper hyper innovative segment of this industry and a has the chance to do something really really special. The way you put it is essentially finance the future.

I think there's an incredibly powerful effect that this could have on not just the AV ecosystem but DeFi and and finance at large if we can effectively bring these tokenized assets on chain and extend credit on these assets and A is rising through the ranks as one of the top banks in the world and this is the job of banks is to finance the future. A has the chance to extend credit and create a wealth effect for high quality assets in exogenous sources of yield. This is a really really special opportunity and time in the market.

I also think that the margin really comes for from like not being I I I think like the businesses that are run on sort of like bringing full access run on like a very thin margins let's say like if you have a brokerage that allows any access to you know trading any any stock for example or any fund investment and so forth. If you're a lending protocol and you just enable any sort of assets and lend the trust that you basically create wi-i with within the audiences I I think that's form of like a accessibility business have a very low margins and I think where the the margins are higher and and and the the mode is more defensive is actually when you have a bit more opinionated or quite an opinionated take on what sort of asset should be tokenized listed as a collateral borrowed against and what is the composition of of the yield.

The way I think about it is that the the the the business models whether it's onchain or offchain that just purely like provide any sort of access can be outco competed really quickly with the right incentives, the right amount of funding product execution and that competition is fierce for very thin margins and that creates a very very thin value layer. But basically a a setup where you have a a really opinionated take on what are the the best financial opportunities in the future have high quality yield and high quality user bases. You end up in a place where you actually have a lot of dispensability and that translates into the branding and that allows also to capture additional revenue.

That is why the a app a pro and a kit are extremely important for the aid is is not because it only allows to ensure distribution whether it's consumers fintex and institutions existing defi users but it allows to actually build upon that margin and add upsell to the users and and build better products and also products and features where you and move faster and monetize faster because protocol development is is of course moving much slower pace, right? And that is kind of like why this setup where the not only the protocol layer but the product layer is bringing additional revenue streams into the other DAO is such a powerful example and focusing on really good products itself is really important and I think in DeFi we kind of lack on on the idea of building extremely good products and distribution and we are trying to sell all this sort of infrastructure to each other and and FinTex but in in reality a lot of those sort of integrations will get commoditized.

That is why the the sovereign sort of a protocol layer is important for for a and that kind of explains there then why this protocol includes brand brand governance right I mean maybe you could talk a bit about that the A brand and why you feel formal stewardship of the of the brand at this current stage is so important.

I think it's really important because in the past for example a labs and you know a Aidawa and a token holders they they effectively share a brand surfaces and I think when you know we have a setup where basically any usage of the brand or branded products the revenue goes to the to the u ava that creates a sort of a revenue and product alignment but more importantly is that we want to ensure that even if a labs will exist for example in the future that the brand is protected in any sort of for any sort of a outcome and that that is why it was important for us to to put into the same proposal and that brand is also used for growing the the the a products on the product layer growing a v4 and also the reason why we have all these elements in the same proposal because they're all interconnected so a v4 enables a lot of these revenue streams the branding is used to grow the product layer and and and also that that sort of reason is is basically there.

I think in overall this proposal should set a extremely strong foundation on how we from Avala's perspective are working as part of the DAO. So, so oblapse is part of the DAO but working towards like a one direction and and one goal. So, it highlights the importance of being token centric and and sending that signal to everyone. And that's just the baseline and and then the next steps is is thinking of upcoming years of like how we get get to the next lay next sort of improvements that we can do like how do we add more transparency protection and those kind of things that already exist in the traditional capital markets but taking the good parts and leaving the bad parts out and applying them in token world because I truly hate the narrative of like tokens are worthless because you know they do control an extremely important infrastructure.

This infrastructure is not going to be that valuable if we don't go beyond these exa these existing crypto assets. You know, if you want to trade all the value in the world, yeah, you need to go beyond the crypto value. You need to go into any value that is is basically a potential target.

You know you you stunning you speak about the the product layer, the protocol layer and the brand governance. All of these are reinforcing one another. Another part of this proposal is the cur the curation of a of a foundation an independent foundation that would hold the a IP and the trademarks and some of the branding rights. How will the independence of this foundation be assured to the A DAO and a labs? What do you see for the structure of this foundation? Maybe who do you see should be on a board for this foundation? And if there is a disagreement, you know, between A Labs and and A DAO, how do you ensure that this foundation makes the correct decision on behalf of A?

The independence is the the the key there element and I think independence is something that is you know established also in in traditional boards and and there is different ways to do that and and obviously like a labs is is part of ao. It's sort of a a permanent contributor into the a protocol. we get paid for doing certain things like building the AV4 and previous versions and have some sort of also marketing budgets in the past and and here it's it's more about consolidate consolidation and basically going effectively for a growth mode from a a startup mode and of course in in Dow there's there's always various different opinions and you know the strongest voices don't really actually own the DAO and that's also like the beauty whether it's Cyclops or someone else and that doesn't really that that is the beauty of actually Dows is that you know anyone can have their voice and opinion but what truly matters is what is on chain and what basically decisions are are are made and it works in the same way in running these traditional businesses as well end of the day decisions needs to be made when it comes to execution in regards to the the actual foundation.

There needs to be just purely independence from from any any any party in including u labs and everyone else.

Donnie just a couple more things just coming back just to finalize and and crystallize the the economic structure here. Could you just give the audience a quick run through as to how directing 100% of the revenue from a labsu built products will change the existing economics of a I think a lot of fundamental analysis are really excited about a lot of protocols and tokens that are redirecting capital back on a pro programmatic consistent basis. Maybe you could just talk through like what that what your current model is and then what you expect the changes to be in the economics in in the flywheel as a whole you know if this goes through.

The existing model is sort of quite quite simple and what we established back in 2020 with the IP1 which is simple that revenue borrowing revenue comes into the protocol and portion of that is taken into the aid and then that's sort of like one business model where users supply stable coins and they're borrowed and and that generates interest. There's also the Aative Go stable coin which is sort of a second line of business where the A protocol itself operates at a takes a margin of of the lending in go lending in in in the most cases and in the of the core market there's for example 100% of u margin that goes into a DAO because there's on the borrowing side because there is no LPS as technically the the A as a protocol is the LP there and what basically happens with the A will win proposal is that in some ways a third business line is is created.

This third business line is anything that is created on the proto layer by a labs. So that can be for example the existing swap fees that has nothing sort of a hasn't any relation to the protocol but are simply swaps on these user interfaces and also position swaps. So if a user wants to swap one asset that they have as a clut to another one or swap one dep position to another one they generate fees and those fees go into the of a DAO and it's about 10 million in fees annualized that is going to the to the DAO but also any sort of revenue streams we might add even even further with new products, new launches and something for example we're working now in the AVA app is a a card.

For example any sort of a time a user a user is swiping their card a portion of that card swap is going to go to the aid. I think it's quite cool because you know it's a it's a very sort of a rare model where you think you are doing as a customer of chain and you're generating revenue that goes all the way to onchain that benefits token holders. So fundamentally it allows labs basically build products in autonomy add monetization features as long as they go directly at 100% into the DAO and I think that is really really powerful because on a protocol layer we can move faster and we can increase monetizations faster and obviously V4 on the on the protocol layer expand some of these revenue features for example we have a reinvestment feature that we are add we we added in the A V4 protocol.

When the rates on a are lower than the risk-free rates, the float part of the the float of the pools can be reinvested into treasuries or onchain sort of a risk-free products like Asco and and and and these types of products and that generates more revenue and then with the spokes you can add additional use cases and those can range of using LP LP positions as collateral to lend go against at a 100% margin. Or for example borrowing lending funds into qualified custodians where Bitcoin and Ethereum is used as a collateral to borrow. So this sort of OTC business is still growing outside of D5 and this enables that revenue stream to go back to back to D5. So there's there's there's certain elements on a v4 which expands this revenue layer on on the on the protocol side.

For me the most exciting thing is is that now we actually have outside of protocol revenue features on whatever the users might be doing. So it's going to be really interesting few like a couple of years to think about what do we add into the app to build more revenue.

Stan, last thing for you. What happens next if the DAO ratifies this framework? And what can the community as token holders expect in terms of follow-ups? Kind of what can we expect to come next?

Upon ratification the proposal there's obviously you know continuous development of there's a v4 launch that is coming. So that is going to be a big thing. there's going to be a follow-up ratification on the parameters for a v4 and also on a continuous basis of a labs is sharing u in form of accountability reports and continuous reports to the a community. So one of the things we want to ensure that there is a high degree of transparency and accountability and I think it's very easy to do because all the focus is on the token centric model which simply needs which simply is easy to point where we have to grow where the growth is going and what do we need to do to achieve that growth.

The vision is something that takes few