Zcash drama, stablecoin adoption, reinsurance markets & onchain reputation with Iron, Re, and Fluent

How about the I'm the back back. JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions. It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say. I'm bullish.

You said it. You finally said it. I'm so blessed. I'm bullish. We're bullish. How the mother about the How the mother Hop up above the heat. industry is going to the next level. And guys, I I don't know what else to say.

You said it. You finally said it. So bullish bullish. I'm bullish. We're bullish. I'm about the How the mother the I'm above the Hola is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys. Bang. Good morning, America. 9:51 a.m. Good morning, America. Here, reporting from the basement of Baronss, soon to be the nest of Neo finance, the uh the nest of Neo finance. The dungeon of DeFi. I got my rollup shirt on today.

Whoa. Where do you get that? It's actually really nice fabric. We got We got to make some more with this fabric. Is that comfort colors? Shout out Shout out to the team. Yeah, it is comfort. It is comfort. Uh comfort fabric. It's pretty nice. The rollup. Don't Don't mess around when it comes to the merch. You know, Andy, you missed it today while you were asleep. We were workshopping some new merch.

Oh, really? What did I miss? Some Neo finance merch. Some Neo finance merch. I think it's a must. I've just been pounding Coke Zeros this morning. Now, Coke Zero. What is the zero? Is it zero caffeine or zero sugar?

Zero sugar. Brother lot. Zero sugar. Enough to get to get through the the treacherous morning here in Hawaii. I want to say this is the longest I've been without coffee. Maybe since I was 16 I've You're uncaffeinated right now. I'm totally uncaffeinated. Nothing but water. Nothing but water through my veins. Feels uh feels pretty even keel. Feel a lot more stable. My heart is not palpitating. So I think that's healthy.

Ah, it's boring. You got to get back on the caffeine tomorrow. Get firing. No, feel quite peaceful. There's a direct correlation to uh the rollup revenue to the amount of caffeine that you drink. By the way, direct correlation. Rollup's doing all right. Direct correlation. GM GM cocoa. GM Koka. All right, let's let's hop into the news. I think we have some Zcash drama um that we got to cover. Basically, the entire development team left um and people are trolling them hard. Trolling them hard. Zaki is getting under fire a lot. So, he put out Zaki might get Zaki might get booted. Um yeah, I mean Zaki deleted all of his content. People are pissed off about it. Um Josh, the CEO of Zcash, put out a tweet saying not okay, hold on, hold on before you start spreading misinformation. There's no CEO of Zcash. Zcash is former CEO of Electric Coin Co. There you go. There's multiple So Zcash is a And you got to look at Zuko. Zuko, you know, obviously founder inventor of Zcash, put out this thing which basically like, look, there's multiple organizations that are working and contributing to Zcash, one of which is Electric Coin Capital.

There's no CEO of Zcash. No, no, but yes, Josh Twiart, who was on the show, is uh the former, I guess now, former CEO of Electric Coin Capital. Electric Coin Company. Yeah. Electriccoin company which was one of the main labs corpse around Zcash and there was internal disputes uh misalignment with uh internal team members and now there's a divergence happening and so it's really and Zuko basically made the point like look this is making Zcash even more decentralized where yeah you already had multiple labs corporations now you have one of the main labs corporations electrocoin company splitting splintering into two organizations so you're going to have a new organization and then you're going to continue to have Electrocoin Company, I believe, but it may be reconfigured as a nonprofit. That's TBD.

Yeah. So, Josh just put out this tweet. We are all in on Zcash. We need to scale Zcash to billions of users. Startups can scale, but nonprofits can't. That's why we created a new startup, Cashzorg. I like it. So, they're literally creating a new wallet. Yeah. Using the same Zashy codebase. The code name is Cash Z. If you're a Zashy user, all you need to do is do is join the weight list below. And yeah, I don't know what uh I mean, okay, so look, so Josh put out this tweet yesterday. Over the past few weeks, it's become clear that the majority of bootstrap board members, a 501c3 nonprofit to create Zcash by governing the electric coin company, specifically Zucky, Manny, Christina Garmin, Allan Fairless, and Michelle Lie have moved without names is wild crazy work. Clear misalignment with the mission of Zcash. Yesterday, the entire ECC team left after being constructively discharged by ZCAM. In short, the terms of our employment were changed in ways that made it impossible for us to perform our duties effectively and with integrity. We're founding a new company, but we're still the same team with the same mission, building unstoppable private money. Importantly, the Zcash protocol is unaffected. This decision is simply about protecting our team's work from malicious governance actions that have made it impossible to honor ECC's original mission. We'll have more soon. And and he has a link there to what constructive discharge means.

Yeah. And he says it's when according to the definition it's when a worker's resignation or retirement may not be found to be voluntary because the employer has created a hostile or intoler intolerable work environment or has applied other forms of pressure or coercion which forced the employee to quit or resign. Yeah, Zcash obviously dumped about 20% on the news. Yeah, which is crazy work as well. I think Arthur started trolling as well.

Oh, did he? What was Arthur up to? I mean, I don't know. This just doesn't look good. Like no matter how you spin it, uh you know, Bellagi's like C Zcash can scale. Zcash must scale. Zcash will scale. I don't know. It seems like um it seems like Zaki is getting a lot of the heat right now. Um Zaki Man looting and destroying the cosmos ecosystem somehow manages the bungle Z the Zashi team. No matter what, Zaki will continue to fade into irrelevant. Jesus. Zaki's been around a long time. He's done a lot of good work. I'm here to defend Zaki. Look, I don't know what was happening internally. Yeah, Zuko said that they were that all these people are high integrity. Zaki, Allen, Christina. There's obviously some sort of misalignment in terms of ethically and morally like what they thought to be the mission behind Zcash. Sounds like it's almost equivalent to what happened at OpenAI where you have a team internally that believes that the the entity should be a for-profit organization and that's the best way to scale this and ultimately provide the value. In OpenAI's case, obviously it's to build AGI. In this case, it's to build Zcash. And then you have another group that believes it should be a for non-forprofit.

Yeah, I can see it both ways. What do you And so Zucky puts out a post as well saying basically that um that they are saddened by this outcome from the um bootstrap perspective. Um the board engage in discussions regarding external investment and alternative structures to privatize Zashi while working with legal counsel to ensure any path forward would comply with US nonprofit law. There's nothing wrong with forprofits. Uh, but Bootstrap ECC's nonprofit constraints are real and navigating them responsibly can be complex particularly in a changing environment. So yeah, I mean, wait, wait, wait. That was Zaki's message. Sounds like he's also advocating for a startup. They were like, "The proposed deal in it last day introduces new vulnerabilities for politically motiv motivated attacks on Zcash. Any of its donors could sue." Um, so they're basically just trying to prevent the jeopardization of the entire Zcash ecosystem. um and that some proposal going forward, you know, they thought it was for the better of all, but that proposal ended up turning out to be uh effectively causing this division.

It's such a it's such a shame because it it actually doesn't sound like they're too far off. It sounds like both of them want to turn this previously non nonprofit into a for-profit company so that it can properly, you know, generate revenue, build and scale Zcash. So they are both heading in this direction of turning a nonprofit into a for-profit, but they just couldn't agree on the right structure of the for-profit. Yeah, this all could have been avoided. You know, you could have, you know, these guys have their net worths in Zcash as far as, you know, I I'm I'm aware. And so, you know, you could have avoided a negative 20% decline in net worth by just sorting this out amicably internally. Yeah. But who knows how long that's going to last. It's probably for the better that this happened this way than rather it blowing up in like two years. You know what I mean? Like I mean you can still figure this out at some point. Even if you're going to split off and form another entity. It doesn't have to have this like crash and burn ending.

It's the same vibe as a bro. Same vibe as a like a a chart unfortunately has just gotten smoked as a result of that drama. And I don't like markets hate that uncertainty. Yeah, it's the same uncertainty that's happening with Zcashier where people are like, well, what's going to happen is the future yada yada. It is uncertainty either way. But in A's case, it was a battle between token holders who felt like they had a right to the protocol versus entity stakeholders. Yeah, in this case, these are both entity stakeholders or internal team members to the entity. No, this is it's not like Zcash holders, you and I and Arthur and Bot like, you know, we're not standing up and revoling and saying, "Hey, we own some Zcash, therefore we own a piece of electric coin company and we want to turn it into a for-profit." Yeah. Right now, that's kind of what happened in a situation.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think um you know, it kind of comes down to this. It's still funny how it comes back to this token equity thing. Um, you know, Mike Dudas put out this whole post about it and we had Sam on yesterday talking about how 2026 was going to be the year of unification when it comes to these token models. Yeah. And it's just like we're very much in a time where there's no perfect structure that works for everyone and every project. You know, actual success really comes down to having an except exceptional long-term team that runs things like a real founder company, not like this fugazi dowo decentralization stuff. tokens can end up being the second best to equity for, you know, different app layer products that that need strong decisive leadership. Especially when we've seen so many DeFi founders step back, put Dows in maintenance mode and just kind of buzz off. Pure equity also isn't better though. For example, Binance's B&B token, it adds real utility like fee discounts and airdrops that tie directly to the business and the chain. So that the token does have a value. However, tokens don't have, you know, strong legal rights. they don't have uh the same level of of claim on value and shareholder value as equities. So you end up trusting these teams to heavily distribute value and profits properly. And so you've got this safe and saf model which 99% of protocols give investors free tokens on top of equity as we know from our investing experience pumping perceived valuations typically stream over retail. There's probably a way to fix this in the future. there's probably a way where investors can pick equity or tokens or a mix uh for better alignment. I mean at the end of the day it's like there's been a lot of bad execution and that has been more of the problem. Um so I think if you focus on chain usage cash flow that is what's going to drive you know token value the strong teams are going to make it work whether it's through buybacks governance utility etc. the the strong teams will unify uh and figure it out and and you know just today optimism puts out a a proposal the next chapter of optimism the optimism foundation is putting forward proposal to align the OP token with growing chain demand by directing 50% of incoming superchain revenue to regular OP buybacks and so yeah I just think that this is happening regardless Sam was right it is the year of unification and we'll see how this problem gets solved imagine the scenario where we have all this unification 2026 token holders, entity holders, everyone sings kumbaya, everyone comes together as one. Two years from now, President AOC I know comes in destroys it all puts in more oppressive regulatory regime and everyone's forced to fragment again. Everyone goes payments and we need we need labs entities and foundations and everyone splits up again.

Dude, I literally had lunch with the head of research at Circle yesterday and we were talking about this and I told him about your your take about like being bearish on decentralization and then Nick from Celestia brings up that exact point. He's like, "Dude, wouldn't it be hilarious if we do all of this stuff like in this centralized kind of like focused orientation just to get a Democrat in the next election and we have to unwind it all and go back to where we were?" Just it's just hilarious, dude. Crazy work out here, dude. I obviously the more that we can codify into law, the less likely that happens. Even with a Democrat in office, if they flip the House or the Senate or in the presidency, if it's in law, they have to do just as much work. Like as much work the Republicans are doing now to get genius and clarity, they would have to do equal and opposite work in order to affect regulatory change to the to the contrary. Yeah. Right. So that makes it that much more difficult. We're gonna fix the title here. Um and so yeah, I mean what's the what's the consensus? Like do we think that we're going to get so like is that the direction we're headed?

What about this lunch? I don't know. They didn't really have an answer with with regards to where we're headed. Um, I mean, it's impossible to know, but it does look like the uh Democrats are going to win the um are are going to win the midterms. I 70 I think it's 72% chance on Kinoa. Yeah, they were they were pretty fired up about the idea of being d bearish decentralization. So, yeah. Anyways guys, we've got Max Von Wallenberg, the CEO of Iron, uh which is Moon, tightly knit with Moon Pay, uh talking about the enterprise stable coin stack. We've been pushing on the uh pretty big idea here of uh Neo Finance. I think iron is a is a very good candidate of this category. Max being uh one of the uh leading players here probably has a lot to say about what's happening in the stable coin world uh and more. So, without further ado, guys, we got Max in the back ready to go. Let's get Max up and let's get this show started after the interesting Zcash drama that we had.

Max, what's up, man? How are you? Welcome to the show. Hey, we're well, thanks. Thanks for having me. Absolutely, sir. It's a pleasure. Congrats on the recent partnership between Iron and Moon. Thank you so much. Yeah, it's been a whirlwind. Like the, you know, last year has been really insane. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe you can tell us a little bit about it. I mean, you know, you guys at Iron, you're building uh basically a one-stop shop, like full service stable coin stack. You got APIs, you got compliance, you got all these things to help connect stable coins with the real world. Um, how did this deal with Moon Pay come to fruition? Obviously, crypto M&A has been really, really hot. Uh, did you approach them? Did they approach you? What made this a perfect fit?

Yeah, sure. Uh, I mean, interesting story. I mean, I know the Moon Pay team for a long time already. Actually, I built a wallet uh before I built iron. So uh it was a Salana wallet. We worked with Muay for a long time. I mean they're the you know as you guys know the leading ramp uh provider for wallets and more in DeFi. Uh so we knew each other for a long time. Uh kind of being a consumer of the services. Uh and then we kind of built iron. So um ultimate the wallet that was acquired by Jupiter. Uh we then kind of moved towards the enterprise world built stable coin uh APIs and you know I never kind of stopped talking to the moon team like you know we always were closely aligned. I mean they have obviously phenomenal uh GTM and access to DeFi and um you know they've been kind of pushing hard on kind of this whole Moon enterprise uh and obviously stable coins are a really vital component of that uh started talking and uh just very quickly we realized it makes a lot of sense uh you know Moon has all the licenses u that we needed uh has like really deep connections in with a lot of players we already talked to in terms of uh stable coins and uh we just decided together we're stronger and um you know then you know pretty quickly uh the deal went went ahead and uh you know started building together.

It's pretty incredible. I think a lot of teams are uh realizing that now is the time when a lot of these deals are to be made. Um, I'm just curious, maybe just zooming out a little bit before we get in into the more nitty-gritty around stable coin stacks and iron and moon. Like what would you recommend to a founder? Maybe they're looking at, you know, their runway. They're looking at, you know, how much cash they have in the bank and they're thinking to themselves, you know, I've been on this journey maybe a few years. Is now the right time to get acquired? And, you know, they're weighing their options. Any any words of advice to founders out there that are considering M&A options?

Yeah, I get these these questions a lot. I mean, it's a really tough one, right? Because uh you know obviously there's a case for staying independent and like you know gunning for that like you know multi-billion exit right like which you know obviously is the the dream of most founders and uh you know being small and nimble and being kind of you know master of your own fate is something that you know founders really like right that's the reason why people become founders right so first of all you have to you know think about like do I have a you know a really honest shot of winning and and you know really making it right so you know we all know like VC math works you know power law like you know one in 10 works or probably even less, right? So kind and look at look look at your your kind of chances of winning, right? And also like what it really takes. Uh and for us like it was basically we looked at like how long would it take us to you know build the whole license stack, right? Like and it's something we you just couldn't really control ourselves like it takes a long time to get kind of you know MTLS and like Mika licenses and everything into place. So that was you know for us something where we like you know speed is something that you know we really needed to win and you know obviously other players like you know the bridges BVNKs are forging ahead and so we you know we had to be fast so so that was kind of one decision for us where where speed mattered um for a lot of founders it's like you know can you raise enough money can you be fast enough and you know also look at kind of your your team right like would you kind of really bring your team along right and we did like you know the entire team went along and like we're you staying strong as a unit but you know if if kind of your strength as a team and like you have a you know set of team members that maybe are not up for an acquisition like that and it's going to get tough right because your core DNA will get lost right so it's there's no like hard and fast easy answer to this but um I think the short run would be you know if you can win standalone go for it uh if one plus one equals three do that right so and obviously you have to be bullish on the one acquiring you right because you're going to be you know in in bed for a long time and you know obviously your your fate is now, you know, the tied to like the company that buys you.

Yeah. Yeah, Max. Um, appreciate that. I I think there's been, as Rob said, there's been so much M&A this year, it's it's it's kind of insane. And and it's it's all kind of seemingly happened at this enterprise level. It's it's been less of like I mean there's been a couple acquisitions of like crypto applications let's say but it's really like this like B2B infra this enterprise infra the likes of Bridge uh with Stripe the likes of of of others in that kind of category really seemingly pushing this forward um and and so you know props to you guys for capitalizing congrats again uh let's there there's there's one more component here right like if you talk to really big PSPs enterprise customers y you know like you don't get fired for, you know, choosing Stripe, you don't get fired for choosing Moonpay, right? But like if you're like, you know, as a as a big enterprise picking like a small vendor and something goes south, like, you know, it's tough, right? So that that's just another thing, right? Like you you kind of really want to uh you know, make sure you have a seat on the table, right? And very tough. Like you have to build a big brand as a startup to get that done.

Yes. Yep. Yep. Good point. Um, Max, let's talk just kind of super high level holistically here and then we'll get into some of the nitty-gritty. You've said that you think uh 2026 will be the year of customissued stable coins. Um, this is a new term for us and our audience. Give us some of your 2026 stable coin enterprise predictions. What is going to happen in 2026 for the stable coin market? What are custom issued stable coins? Talk to us about some of your predictions here.

Sure. Yeah. I mean, custom issues stable coins is a really big one for us. Like we recently launched our insurance uh business together with M0. Uh really happy with our partner. Uh you know like issuance is a much more complex business than people think, right? It's not as easy as like hey I'm just going to you know uh do a feedback stable coin uh and go to market like there you know the M0 stack is really deep when it comes to like the onchain part right like smart contracts uh you know they these these things they they take a long time to develop to you know have you know a very bulletproof architecture so that's why we partners and say like together we can do this really well um but I think like a lot of the the traditional uh fintexs we're talking to and talking to like you know the large fortune 500 companies they're exploring launching on stable coins and you heard the the the Walmart news like you know there and there's others in that in that category right that are really thinking about like how do we actually um think about our you know our money stack right of the future and like owning your own like your whole money back end including the yield component including everything and issuance you know issuing your own stable coin allows you a lot of things right like gives you more control uh it becomes a brand uh and it's something that gives you a lot of like architectural you know freedom to build a product uh without relying on like a circle stack or a Teta stack. Uh so so that's why a lot of like companies are looking at this and you know we think you know most fintexs today will look at launching their own stable coins. You already see this now in the DeFi world that's like the first one where they you know everyone that has an app and has like a lot of you know TVL on the app. you know, you saw the hyperlquid uh tender, right? You're like, "Hey, why am I giving this money to circle, right? Like, why am I not capitalizing on this, right?" So, it becomes an easy pitch where uh you already have users, you have TVL, might as well capitalize on it. And uh you know, the the the issuance piece, there's quite a few vendors you can pick from now. Um, so it's something that becomes a pretty uh a pretty important part of your go to market as as a fintech and as a DeFi company.

And when you're you're integrating this into the Moon stable coin stack, you know, obviously you brought iron infrastructure there. You also mentioned M0. We've had conversations with MZ. Mastercard is a partner with Moonay as well. Could you give us a a sense of of the flow of stable coins through Moon Pay? You know, you also makes perfect sense why a lot of these companies that have a lot of cash on hand, they're looking to generate yield, they don't want to give it away. What is the value proposition of using enterprise stable coins through Moonay versus someone else, right?

Sure. Sorry, Andy, I can't hear. Sorry. Some quick context. Yesterday we had Sam on the the CEO and co-founder of Fracks and he he he laid out a prediction you know that is very aligned with Rob's questions which is that the the stable coins that are going to experience hockey stick type growth and this kind of structures are going to be fully end to end and so I think that's pretty that is like relevant context to understanding kind of how liquidity flows through iron through moon.

Sure. So I mean one one of one of the reasons people pick moon as a stable conditions partner is obviously like uh GTM like go to market right like moon is integrated everywhere right and we have a lot of surface area and you know there's if you want to launch a stable coin you obviously want to get people to be able to buy it right like and get exposure to it right so so that's one thing right like where if you kind of pick a stable coin partner like you want to pick one that understands kind of the fiat rails behind it where iron comes in so you know we kind of do everything fiat related like banking rails. We issue virtual accounts which is like a almost like a a bank account like uh product like a virtual IB in the user's name. you wire money there and gets instantly minted into our stable coin, right? Can be a, you know, a UCCC, can be a custom issued stable coin and um and that's a very integrated product, right? like and then it can also be just accessible via kind of Moon Pay widget by the you know an entire kind of surface area of how people interact with DeFi and Moon is a really like really easy go to market partner for this whereas because we solve two things like one the the the whole stack behind like the issuance but also then how to actually bring it to market and um you know if you look at kind of our social following and like our you know general uh when we launch something it becomes big very fast and you know this is something I always give advice to founders think kind of end customer go to market like scaling first how do you get this product in the hands of people and M is a good really excellent go to market partner for this so so that's where like in terms of like choosing who you want to do it with matters um it also depends obviously which jurisdiction you want to launch it in uh you know are you more defi native should it be open loop or closed loop meaning can everyone buy it or uh you know is just a hidden one that you don't even see. It's under the hood. And there's a lot of a lot of these choices that founders have to make.

And you mentioned a couple of the the reasons as to why some of these brands might want to launch their stable coins. I think yield is first and foremost, but on the flip side, right, when you're bringing the the the stable coin to market, you like you said, you want a lot of customers to end up buying the stable coin. It's not just, you know, helpful to have the stable coin issued and in circulating supply, earning some yield on it, uh, and pocketing, you know, the the net interest income. Uh, you want the consumer to end up using the stable coin in X, Y, and Z, right? Could you help fill in the blank there? Like, because a lot of the value of these stable coins ends up coming as far as what you can do with it after it's issued. What are what are you seeing as some of the key things that a lot of these brands are are using these stable coins for?

Sure. I mean, I think down the line, you know, I believe in a world of like hundreds, maybe even thousands of stable coins, but end customers won't really interface with them directly in the future, right? Like that it will US dollar balance and it can even be backed by multiple stable coins, right? Um, but in the end, you can't expect the end customer to really understand, you know, and and and force them into like swapping across venues and like, oh, which form of the dollar do I want to use? Uh I think it's bit of an interim state that we're at where we you still see what stable coins you interact with on some of these fintexs and and platforms. In the future it will just be completely abstracted away, right? Like where you know then sort of uh architecture that just makes it very straightforward. You can send any stable coin on any chain and and we actually have that crosschain architecture built in like crosschain deposits. So you can literally send anything on any chain and then we turn it into what's needed at the recipient. Can be their own stable coin, can be, you know, one, you know, a public one that they want. But I think end consumers won't really be interfacing that much anymore, you know, give it a year or two with like really end like the the the the underlying issuers themselves, but for now they do.

Yeah. And so in that regard then, you know, we had Exodus just come out and uh launch their USD stable coin, right? So it's like a public company coming out with us. Yes, with iron. That's that that that is the motive of the question here. Max, um what makes a public obviously we have Circle, right? But Circle launched their stable coin before USDC before they were public. Uh if I'm not mistaken, there are no other public stable coins. Perhaps PayPal, but I'm not sure if PayPal is even public. Maybe they are. Um I've never invested in them. What makes a public company comfortable issuing their stable coin now in 2025 2026? You know, why do they need iron? What kind of like what was that process like of helping Exodus launch their stable coin and be an issuer?

I mean, I can't, you know, obviously comment on like too many of the details, but I will so I will go attack it from a bit of a different angle. I will say that like a lot of the enterprises and and fintex and fortune 500 companies are very comfortable to not just like issue their own stable coins to work with other stable coins because like it just becomes a very w you know a fully regulated form of money right so uh so first of all like picking stable coins as a rail is not something that's perceived as a brand risk or something to companies right they would you know actually it's quite the opposite right like it's uh it's something that you know uh It's very forward, very tech forward, like something that you know, probably the public markets also appreciate if you feel uh you know, if you build at the forefront of like the the modern money stack. Um, and in the case of Exodus, you know, it it it just makes sense for them, right? Like they obviously they're a very crypto native company and if you know Exodus, like you know, they hold a large part of their their treasury in in Bitcoin. I think like I think it's like an obscenely high amount, like 70% or something. So I find it always very uh they they're they're like properly orange pill as a company right and really believe in in this. So to their investors that cannot buy uh Exodus like they are they would certainly welcome uh you know a forward thing like launching an all stable coin but with regards to like why and how and now like I can't really comment on that.

Understood. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it just seems like this is a trend that's likely to keep accelerating, right? With regards to all right, I'm a public company. I want to launch a stable coin. Exus is such a edge case though because as you said, they've been a wallet for like I don't know 12 years and they are very very like OG kind of like cyber punk type of uh type of idea here. So, but but you know now they now now they also bought a kind of a a payment company. Was it Monovate or Banksa? Like one of the two. Yeah, exactly. So they are they're obviously going heavily into into payments, right? It's pretty epic to see like cryptonative companies come out and be able to just purchase large existing companies based off of the appreciation of their of their investments or just like the of their way of managing their their capital. Yeah, exactly. Ripple is a great example. It's a rollup company now, right? Like that. Yeah. Tether as well. So um you mentioned some of the the treasury degeneracy from Exodus let's say or just very con high level of convicted bets strong conviction in Bitcoin um how does iron work with companies to actually simplify crosschain treasury management treasury management in general without adding new operational risk talk to us about your work with companies with regards to treasury management.

Yeah, that's a very important topic. Like we whenever we talk to kind of traditional companies like Trafi companies, they they want stable coins or stable coin support for crossber money movement, which is one of the biggest use cases, right? Like where you uh just use stable coins to like as a as a transfer agent glue between real uh real-time payment systems like PICSS in Brazil uh you know, not quite in the US. Maybe RTP Fed now is going to come uh or be more prevalent, but you want to have local payment rails uh connected via stable coins and that's something that you know traffic companies are really happy uh to to use, but they don't they're not very happy to actually like integrate kind of any form of onchain architecture. So what we solve for them is like you go with your existing ways. You can still wire fiat, right? And you know the recipient receives fiat and you know we solve the rest, right? we solved the the stable coin orchestration and um I think it'll come to a point where obviously wallets and holding stable coins and doing stuff with it as part of the treasury stack also will become a thing. It's not actually as a thing yet, right? Like today, it's mainly a, you know, get me get me from A to B as fast and as cheap