Vitalik Keeps Selling, Zhu Su maps the next cycle, Relay Raises $17M, Figure crosses $22B in HELOCs

the back.

JP Morgan, Black Rock, DTCC, Fidelity, the entire thing was just institutions.

It's just it's next level. This industry is going to the next level. And guys, I don't know what else to say.

I'm bullish. You said it. You finally said it. I'm so bullish.

I'm blessed. We're bullish.

The rollup is headed to the top. If we're not already at the top, we're going to the top. We're on fourth floor today. We're going to be on floor one and then we're headed straight to the moon, boys.

Guys, we're going to zero. It's the reality of the situation. Not what you want to hear, but that's where we're at.

Bitcoin is in an absolute freefall. We are under the 2021 highs. We are, or excuse me, the 2024 highs. We've completely erased the entire Trump rally. ETH is under 2K.

I'm hearing conflicting reports as to why things are down. On one hand, you've got the quantum risk of Bitcoin. Ethereum has six plus years of quantum security research. So why does that mean everything is getting pulled down by everything else?

Bitcoin is not outperforming gold. I can just reinforce all of the things that you guys already know. Hyperlid is the only thing that is somewhat holding up. It's pretty sad what's happening out there.

Billions of dollars of liquidations in just the last few hours. There's going to be fallout from this. We're going to see market makers get liquidated. We're going to see price sensitive businesses go out of business.

There's going to be layoffs. There's going to be companies that don't make it through this point of the market cycle. And so, whether you guys are listening and you're a personal investor, stay off the leverage.

It may even seem enticing now. It feels like we're approaching a point where blood is running through the streets and they say, buy when there's blood on the streets.

But frankly, we haven't seen the final leg of this, which is obviously what people were talking about, these guys that seemed indestructible and invincible, the Bit mine and micro strategy of the world.

These guys are going to have their number called. Bitcoin is significantly under both of their average entries. They were buying on the way up. Will their LPS redeem these shares? Who knows? We're going to find out.

Interestingly, Micro Strategy is going to report their fourth quarter earnings this afternoon. Incredible timing.

Okay, let's go through a few headlines, try to make sense of everything that's happening out there, and then we're going to kick it over to a couple of guests. We're going to have another friend from the Avalanche world come in. That'll be Morgan. She'll be our first guest, and then we'll have our friends over at Relay who just announced $17 million raise.

Impeccable timing they were able to raise in these market conditions. So guys, let's Mr. Secretary, the price sensitive side of the market, which is what you probably see when you're scrolling through Coin Gecko, you see a lot of the tokens that are liquid.

And then you've got the other side of the market, which is price insensitive and these are companies like Figure and a lot of the tokenization companies. It's a lot of the financial institutions. These guys are tokenizing money market funds. stable coins are the core of this business.

There's really not a whole lot of digital asset exposure, which is why people were so upset and that is ultimately what's going to save these guys from bankruptcy now that the tokens are quite a bit down.

So that's that's the current state figure outlines key operating metrics framework ahead of quarterly results. Figure Heliloc I believe superseded they were up to $22 billion dollars in loan origination and Figure Heloc is now a top 10 cryptocurrency.

So pretty incredible that rise. This is something that we anticipate will continue they're essentially a tokenized fund and you can contribute to these loans if of course you meet the regulatory and compliance metrics.

Let's keep moving. We're going to speedrun through this since we've got our first guest almost ready in the back. Next up, we see again Arya has been able to raise another $15 million late in 2025. This might be old news. They added even more after an unprecedented level of music industry funding last year.

I anticipate teams like Arya are actually going to find a niche in the AI portion of the market when it comes to music and AI. That is something I anticipate will just continue to skyrocket.

There's musicians out there that are completely AI generated and they're getting tons of love from the existing music industry because people don't know that they're AI generated. I think now that everyone has top, you know, music label at their fingertips with all of the expertise and all of the instruments that are used to make music, we're going to see a lot more AI generated music.

And I think AI in general is ripe for IP tokenization. No wonder Arya was able to raise another 15 million and they were able to do so before this market downturn, which is going to be extremely important that teams get their raises in now so that they have plenty of runway to last out, you know, what could be a at least a multimonth, if not a multi-year bare market.

We're going to hear more from raising in the in the current conditions later from our friends at Relay. Next up we've got we've got our lord our previous lord and saver Vitalik.

So Vitalic has decided that now is a good time for him to be selling ETH. Pretty incredible. If you look at this dashboard, this is from Arkham and you can see, you know, right now Vitalik's ETH pile is down 14% today. Valued at about 6 million. He's got, you know, just over 3,000 in ETH in his portfolio.

You can also see here he's got some wheat wrapped ETH, you know, almost double upwards of $11 million. He's got some stable coins. He's got $3 million of go LUSD. What is that? Harry Potter Obama. She enu ticker is Bitcoin. Not very much in there. 32 cents. Just some dust for V.

But yeah, you guys can see here that he let's see. So he started to withdraw in PayPal USD. He's probably got some security reason for doing that. Vitalic uses cow swap and he uses a as to as to where that ETH and that USD was sitting.

And he has started to raise funds for what he's calling this period of austerity in the Ethereum world. Obviously markets are not very friendly to austerity. So you can see he has started to increase his balances.

And this is what's happening here. He's doing this on Ethereum, the L1, because there's no need for L2s and and yeah, V is dumping on us. Usually the Ethereum Foundation dumps at the top. Vitalic today decided to dump at the bottom. Incredible.

Okay, this is this next one is the one I wanted to get to. if we're putting you know our faith in Suzu things might be a little bit a little bit off.

So Suzu here has said here that you know now that reasoning by analogy is allowed. The reason it's now allowed is because Kyle Smani has left multicoin. He was the famous anti- analogy logical reasoning by analogy was just fabric just fundamentally flawed to Kyle Sami now that he has left the ecosystem.

We have Suzu reasoning by analogy saying that ETH is going to perform like Bitcoin last cycle. Bitcoin last cycle was kind of a, you know, it was sort of a unicorn in the sense that it went up. Everything else in the altcoin complex got crushed, including ETH.

And then, you know, later on, ETH had a just a rapid rise, kind of a catch-up trade to Bitcoin. And Soul says, is going to perform like ETH. And and Soul actually last cycle was a first mover. it had a run up to almost 300 if not you know beyond 300 and was an incredible trade.

People thought it was going to $1,000. Now we have hype. He says it's going to perform like soul last cycle and and lighter to perform like sui obviously had another great great year because it was performing like salana as kind of a a beta to salana.

You know, the fact that we're going down so hard and fast, I think will ultimately rebound with similar similar velocity. I just don't have any conviction into where that bottom is.

You know, I'd love to sit here and tell you guys that, you know, now is a great time to buy. The reality is that we could be going, you know, to 50K because, well, if you're if you're looking at previous cycles, you know, we had gone down by more than 50%.

If you look at where we are right now, we're hovering at about 50% of all-time highs. Alltime high this cycle was 124K if I remember correctly. 62K would be half of that be the 50% decline mark. and we're pretty much right there.

And so Chris Berniski actually had a lot of great tweets about this as well, where he tweeted out some levels that he was watching, and he was able to just call this, shout out to Chris. Wish I followed, I followed this a little bit more carefully. was able to sell some and reserve some cash which you know will be the basis of starting to invest at these lower prices but you know still had some some positions in the market absorbed in this downturn.

And so Chris says you know 80k was the November 25 low this was the local low of this bare cycle which hadn't even really gotten started we've gone through the 80k level 74k was the April 25 low. April 2025 was a result of liberation day and Trump's tariffs. It was also just below Micro Strategies cost basis which was 76K.

We've blown past 74 and 76K to the downside or way way under Micro Strategies cost basis. 70K was the top of the 2021 high. 2021 was 69K at the top and so we've you know now plunged below 70k. We're at about 63 and you know 50 to 70 was the range in 2021.

58k was the 200we simple moving average. And then 50k and below is the bottom of that weekly range. And the psychological below that number you would see death of bitcoin calls.

Once again, I personally don't think we get below 50K. I'm not, you know, going to sit here and say what's possible and what's not, but it feels as if, you know, between 50% to the downside, which is where we are now, we are probably going to go a little bit lower.

Just in a capitulation margin call liquidation cascade. Then that would be the most aggressive selling. which would push us lower than people feel like is a fair value and then they come in because they feel like you know it it is under that fair value and push the price back up.

I must think that you know even if you if you think this quantum thing is just a catastrophic crisis yeah it it it just seems to me that you know we're not going to get too far below 50k. There's people calling for 35k. don't think we get quite there, but within this around this 50 to 60 number feels like it's a it's a time to kind of just dollar cost average in.

Don't go in on leverage. You don't know where the exact bottom will be. You just start chipping, chipping, chipping away. Get in low cost basis. And ultimately stay patient because it's going to be a long road back to 100K and beyond.

So guys, that sets the scene. That's where we are today. Our first guest is part of this institutional world. And so we can go ahead and get get Morgan going. We're going to skip Victor. We're going to go to the VP of BD at Avalabs.

We had a great conversation with Olivia Vanad from Avalabs as well, the head of tokenization there. And I anticipate that with all the great things that a AVAC is doing on Avalanche. We're going to we're going to have another equally great conversation here.

So we're going to bring her in in just a moment, get her started and then we'll we'll have a great conversation despite the market conditions. So stay right where you guys are. If you guys made it this far, I applaud you guys for sticking with us. We're going to bring the energy no matter what.

The reality is that there are price incentive market price insensitive markets out there. People are continuing to tokenize. A lot of the the hate while the market was going down was that you know these these guys weren't just buying assets, these financial institutions. They were actually creating their own products. Some people called that extractive, other people, you know, just called that solid business practices.

And so we've got Morgan in the back now. We're gonna bring her up and, and Morgan, let's let's have a great show. Welcome.

Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. I was just, you know, we were just talking about the markets a little bit. It's pretty catastrophic.

I was like, what am I coming into right now?

I know. It's It's crazy. I mean I I think you know especially with the direction that Avalanche is heading you guys are probably you know talking to a lot of people that they don't watch the market with a very close eye but you know we I and I was explaining we we had a great a great conversation with Olivia the head of tokenization at at Aval and she was you know talking us through the different mechanisms for tokenization how these institutions are thinking about this and ultimately you know what is bringing them onchain I guess just to just to you know stay relevant here.

What how closely are some of these institutions looking at the market? Do they care that you know Bitcoin and ETH are kind of on on a downs slope now or or you know what what is their perspective on this?

I mean I think we'd all be happier if prices were a lot higher in general [laughter] and if we were in a bull market. But no, I mean I think from from an institutional standpoint various types of institutions whether they're financial services or government agencies or other types of enterprises and corporates generally when they're kind of investing in this technology it's more for a medium to long-term outcome or an initiative.

And so I think while you know it's not particularly helpful in the short term, I don't necessarily think that their plans have been totally derailed because of maybe short-term kind of price action. And I think a lot of them are you know beyond being able to kind of enable crypto exposure and crypto trading to their clients whether it's institutions or retail a lot of them are also looking at how to actually use the tech in their day-to-day operations.

And a lot of that revolves around stable coins and smart contracts and tokenization by extension. And so it's very much looking at it as as a technology and enabler to kind of enable their business outcomes. And so ultimately they're they're very kind of long-term oriented and I think that they're still focused on building.

Yeah, no surprise there. I mean like Summit was last week got a great turnout. Um you know there's tons of tokenization platforms. It seems like there's tons of interest both at the regulatory level as well as the institutional level. We're we're seeing a lot of these products be announced.

be before we go any deeper, Morgan, I'd love to get your your background. It's your first time on the show. Welcome. Uh despite the market conditions, hopefully you're a cause for the market to bounce here. Give us a sense of, you know, how you how you got to Ava Labs and and uh you know, a bit more about yourself.

Sure. So um you may have reviewed this but I run onchain finance business development at Avalabs and so when I first started almost four years ago my role was just to focus on institutions and capital markets.

So it was really just to get not just because it was a big rema and and of itself but it was to get asset managers FMIS and banks to leverage avalanche in the context of their blockchain and digital asset strategies. Over that past four years, the worlds of Trafi, DeFi, CFI, and tokenization have really converged, and I think that they'll continue to converge.

And so that remmit has kind of expanded beyond just institutional and wholesale finance, but also to tokenization, which Olivia and my team leads, as well as payments and treasury as well as DeFi. And we take a lot of the initiatives and partnerships forward within my team kind of collectively across verticals or between between verticals because I think a lot of these things that are happening today are not necessarily mutually exclusive and and again I think that they'll continue to converge.

In terms of my kind of professional fora into the digital asset space you know everyone has their their story of how they how they discovered crypto and digital assets. For me it was more boring. I guess I came from Tradfi where you know I worked on a trading floor for for 10 years and then became chief of staff to to city's chief compliance officer which which was a very eye opening experience and kind of seeing how the whole bank kind of comes together and operates and how all the puzzle pieces fit into place and even you know even when I was sitting on the trading floor on on in the front kind of first line of defense I saw you know what happens when kind of and this is not necessarily unique to city I think it's any large enterprise and organization but what happens when systems don't necessarily inherently talk to each other and the manual processes that kind of arise or are needed to arise as a result and fixes kind of implemented that way and so as I kind of experienced that you know I started learning more about digital assets and smart contracts and and figured that blockchain and smart contract capabilities could help to solve a lot of those issues as it relates to really upgrading legacy financial services infrastructure and institutional workflows.

So, I'm sure we'll get into it, but I think the tech can be applied to a lot of different kind of use cases. And and that was, you know, I got excited about the idea of upgrading the plumbing, if you will.

Yeah. So, so let's get into it. So, you know, you you were chief of staff with the city's complian city chief compliance officer. What were some of the things that you saw there? You know, disconnected pieces of the banking infrastructure and and ultimately, you know, now in hindsight, how can we use blockchains to kind of connect a lot of this plumbing? Everything becomes more composable. Everything's more seamless. You know, the the end value to these institutions that Avalabs and and you know, most of the tokenization infrastructure brings.

Yeah. So I think a lot of the use cases that we're focused on from a digital assets and blockchain perspective, a lot of them are as it relates to kind of post-trade settlement, collateral management really things from like an operational perspective. Which ultimately I think can directly kind of correlate to you know savings in operational overhead and cost and efficiencies as it relates to again post-trade things.

And and I think you know my view especially after coming from city is that being able to be proactive about operations risk and control like it might not be sexy but it directly correlates with a firm's ability to proactively take risk. And I think like you know a lot of times people in this space say well it's not it's not interesting if it doesn't if it's not a new revenue opportunity if it doesn't generate new revenue.

But I think like to the extent you can get all of the middle and back office processes right, you're you're able to again take more and better and smarter risk and you know ultimately increase revenue. And so I think those two things are are inextricably linked and it's something that you know when we talk to different enterprises and financial services institutions we work to kind of facilitate that translation.

But that was just you know that was kind of my observation after you know coming from that background and and seeing a lot of the the tech enablement capabilities here.

Yeah. And you know we've heard from several of these tech enablement partners you know we we have them on the show frequently and a lot of times you know when they do get an audience with a lot of these financial institutions these fintexs whether it be in the payments industry or the financial services you know it it it's a long sales cycle. You know, a lot of times they come in and almost serve as a consultant role just educating those teams, helping the financial institutions learn and and get an understanding of what is possible out there.

And most of the time, you know, the one who comes in and does that education is is who they end up partnering with to ultimately launch those those tokenized products. And and it's, you know, a measure of trust that's built up over that over that educational process.

Yeah. What are some of the things you know you know if you if you have any war stories or experiences that you can share of just coming in and and you know doing the hard work of of taking someone zero to one on this on this on this journey because a lot of this is an education gap you know some experiences and then also like what tends to resonate with these institutions and these fintexs that ultimately like when you see the light bulb moment you know what is it that you say that gets them over that line?

Yeah that's a good question. And I think like the way that you framed it is resonates deeply with the way that we approach things as well as a lot of the kind of experiences that we've had. I mean we as as one example a couple years ago we worked with JP Morgan in the context of p project guardian around the tokenization of alternative assets alongside liquid assets.

And like before that announcement was made, we had started cultivating the relationship with our digital asset team probably like two years before then, a year and a half to two years before then. And a lot of it was just relationship building, education, proactive followup, and and you know, just constantly kind of working on building the relationship. Such that you know when they were ready to engage, they knew who we were.

And then we really started going on that like trusted advisor journey where you know we we we came in and we did technical deep dives and and showed you know you know the ins and outs of the protocol and the capabilities and the differentiators and really got you know internal stakeholder buyin from an engineering perspective from a product perspective from a business perspective.

So I think where we you know one of the kind of key differentiators of our BD team is that a lot of us come from financial services. And so we can kind of tow the line in both worlds and really take our partners along the journey in terms of that education and translating the tech into ways that our partners understand and that is relevant for them.

And in many cases, to your point, from a consulting perspective, it's helping them sell the business case or sell Avalanche internally to their compliance teams and risk teams and legal and and even like helping them with presentations to regulators. So, it's really kind of getting in there for formulating these trusted advisor relationships where to your point when they're ready to do something, it's not like I'm just, you know, pedalling a platform. It's like we we really kind of spend the time cultivating that relationship.

And is it backwards compatible in the sense that you're also working with the internal avalanche team? You know, you're kind of relaying feedback that you hear from the JP Morgans of the world and hey, we need to adjust this and that on the product to ultimately fit the market's needs.

Totally. Totally. I think especially over the past few years because you know it's there's a very tight kind of feedback loop to from me to our developer relations team to our avocacloud team which is our kind of blockchain as a managed service offering as well as to our engineering team and saying these are the themes or this is something that I'm like constantly hearing we should think about you know obviously they can't make every single change based on every single little piece of feedback But as things either become repetitive or come from kind of larger financial services institutions, it it's really something that those teams have really started to internalize.

And part of it is also it's like, well, if it's going to be relevant for this big bank or for this exchange, it's probably going to be relevant for others. And so it's knowledge and features that it's not just a one-off, it's something that we can leverage you know, as we scale to to other partners as well.

Yeah. You know you you mentioned it earlier it's this convergence of tradfi defy re really all aspects this is all becoming one world but it is upgrading and it and it's utilizing tokenization and blockchains to you know as these things collide everything is is elevated the asset quality that we've seen on chain it was bitcoin it was ETH those aren't particularly quality assets today but you know like those were the quality assets now for elevating that we're getting a lot of assets that I think you know retail but also institutional investors are they're comfortable holding these things you know for for years on end because they provide some sustainable long-term growth whereas we really never had that asset universe on chain before.

Are are you guys primarily working with the issuers of these products themselves or generally where do you see this market breaking up and and kind of you know what are the segments of of teams you know the asset issuers are they're launching some of these products improving the asset universe on chain and then you have the tech enablement partners is there is there one area here that you think is particularly poised for growth?

That's a good question I mean so maybe just to talk to your comment around upgrading the quality of assets. I think just like as we take a step back and think about tokenization writ large even before it was called RWAS like tokenization was a thing back in like 2017 it was STOs and so tokenization in and of itself is not a new concept.

I think that there's many things this time around that make this time different from a tokenization standpoint. I think just to kind of quickly go through those, I think a few years ago obviously you had a rising rate environment in the real world and so it basically saw a lot of kind of capital flight from the onchain world back back offchain and really put a spotlight on the need to bring real yield and real world assets onchain.

I think you also had the advent of DeFi which showcased that you know after you tokenize and issue an asset there's potentially stuff that you can do with that asset and it's not just you know issue and buy and subscribe and that's it. And basically make the asset more productive and especially with programmability and there's a lot of things that we can kind of talk about there.

You have much more robust infrastructure this time around whether it's kind of compliance infrastructure, tokenization infrastructure with the requisite licenses to be able to issue and tokenize these assets. Stable coins are a huge kind of piece of infrastructure that didn't really exist, you know, in as much scale as it as it does today.

And then finally, speaking to the quality of the assets, I think historically the the assets that were being tokenized kind of self- selected to use the technical term for crappy assets. The insinuation was like, well, if you can't get financing through traditional capital market, see if like crypto will buy it, right? And there's definitely components of that still today, but it's it's dramatically improved.

And with that, you've seen large high quality asset managers entering the space tokenizing their funds and their products and then you know this this whole kind of universe of private credit where even within there there's a whole you know spectrum of of quality but it's definitely been improving.

And so all that's to say is I think tokenization you know is definitely here to stay from our standpoint. We work with both the issuers as well as the tech enablement partners. I mean, from our standpoint, we want to have a relationship with both. And I think from an issuer standpoint, a lot of these asset managers, tokenizing their funds is kind of step one in their broader blockchain and digital asset journey.

And it's their way of, I think, like dipping their toe into this space. And all that's to say is I want to make sure that me and my team have a relationship with the asset managers because there's so much more, I think, for us to do to do with with those teams as we look ahead and on their road map.

The one last thing that I'll say is we've we spent many not many I mean I guess many years for crypto making sure that there was a you know really good kind of high quality asset supply of tokenized assets on Avalanche and obviously those conversations continue but where we're spending the majority of our time is on the demand and distribution side of things working with like with directly with potential allocators and kind of understanding their mandates and their requirements and what's interesting to M uh so we can you know facilitate the proper introductions to the you know asset issuers but also working to cultivate relationships with the fintexs, neo banks and wealthtech platforms who ultimately would be interested in integrating those assets uh and those offerings into their back end and and really focused again on that demand and distribution side of the equation because I think today a lot of the asset managers are focused on you know potentially selling to crypton natives which is fine but I think you know mass adoption really won't come until you start seeing those integrations with traditional distribution channels.

And and so could you walk us through what you think are sort of the the road map ahead? You know, tokenizing these funds, you know, is step one kind of gets their feet wet. They get in the industry, they get a sense of, you know, how this whole tokenization thing works. A lot of these tech enablement partners start to build those relationships as well. What do you think ultimately is the next couple of steps and takes us through, you know, after we've tokenized funds, there's some demand from cryptonatives, but like you said, a lot of these other fintexs with, you know, traditional customers that may not even realize that crypto is underneath is is where I think a lot of people think this is heading.

Yeah. Take us through what what the road map is after an asset issuer has tokenized their fund.

Yeah. So there's I I would kind of split it up into two different parts. I think on on the fintech side of things, what we're seeing in terms of like the order of operations is really for a lot and you know it should be segmented out further but using this as a general generality what we've seen the order of operations be is a lot of those partners start in the first instance to issue or to allow their customers to have access to dollars via stable coins. That's kind of the first step.

Then there is the idea of turning that into digital savings accounts either through integrations with money market funds in the back end or andor through integrations with something like an a or a morpho to start earning on those dollars that are on that platform and then it is a transition to kind of embedded investing which is where you know the funds beyond the money market funds kind of slot in there.

So, you know, and then finally, I would say like stablecoin backed card products, which kind of completes the circle in terms of you know, being able to actually spend spend those dollars on that platform in real life without having to kind of manually offramp those those stable coins. So, that's like the order of operations that we're seeing that a lot of fintexs are interested in.

I think as it relates to asset managers and there's, you know, obviously so many different types of asset managers, the ones that we're particularly kind of bullish on is the private credit space. And really um you know, we've been talking about fund tokenization, which is is introducing the technology pretty downstream in the process. So where I'm excited about as it relates to the private credit space and before we get to the fund tokeniza fund token well it's also fund tokenization [laughter] funds too is is seeing how we can introduce the tech more upstream ideally at the point of origination like when when loans are originated to a variety of different entities in the context of like asset back finance specialty finance and like modern fintech lending.

But if we're not there yet, then at least introducing onchain kind of servicing and verification to start creating these efficiencies that we keep talking about and actually provide concrete reasons for allocators to be interested in leveraging blockchain under the hood. And so in that context, you know, some of those things that we've been talking about with with different originators as well as allocators are, you know, to the extent that you manage the facility on chain or you leverage an infrastructure or tech enablement partner that helps to service an asset or a portfolio facility on chain. There are certain business benefits to you that you get.

For example, because you are embedding the terms of the facility into an onchain NFT, you can therefore start to prevent things like double pledging of collateral, which is a very big issue in the space. You can start to atomically for the originator compare an incoming loan request with the terms of the facility pretty quickly as opposed to spending half a day every week manually reconciling it via an Excel sheet. And then in an ideal world where you start to use stable coins, being able to draw down that from that facility on a daily basis as opposed to a weekly or bi-weekly basis which occurs today.

So those are just some examples, but it's again it's kind of getting into the plumbing, but these are the things that that start to provide a concrete reason to put some of this stuff on chain.

And and this is very helpful context. for so long we've had, you know, tons of conversations about the blockchain plumbing, but you know, not not so many about, you know, the other side of the world, which is ultimately now integrating with the blockchain plumbing. These things are now coming together.

I I think you make a lot of great points and, you know, at at the end of the day, I think, you know, people are very excited because especially in that fintech world, what that looks like to the end consumer is a high yield savings account. it it looks like getting, you know, four, five, six, seven percent on their money rather