The Most Underrated Chain: Celo’s Surprising Traction Around the World

Bankless Nation. We are here with Merrick Alchevky, the CEO of Cababs. That's the organization behind Cello. Merrick, welcome to the show.

Hello. Thanks for having me.

Merrick, I think there's just a lack of education about Cello in the ecosystem about how what Cello is, how it's positioned. I think people probably know it as that chain that transitioned into Ethereum layer 2 not terribly long ago. Always been kind of proximate to the Ethereum ecosystem, at least in Spirit, now formerly part of the Ethereum superructure. So, welcome.

That's not really the subject that I want to kind of cover on today's show. I kind of want to cover like how actually Cello is being adopted and used because I think it's a little bit of an undertold story.

Before we get into that, maybe you can kind of just educate us on Cello's origins and some of the thoughts behind it. It's been around for a long time. Get us up to speed with where Cello came from and what it is today.

Yeah, absolutely. So Cello has been around for eight years. We've been working on it I guess for eight years now. We launched six years ago now. And we are very laser focused on the P2P payment use case. That was really the origin story.

We started by looking to build a mobile wallet on top of Ethereum. That was back in the days of CryptoKitties if you remember. And you know it was very obvious back then that we couldn't build something that was normmy friendly and could scale to you know billions of people on Ethereum back then.

And so that's ultimately what took us down the path of building our own L1. But because we started in Ethereum of course we picked the EVM and we focus heavily on on making it as EVM compatible as possible but with some bonus features to make it work better for that PDP use case.

And so that's the origin story. We we started building it with the mobile wallet at the same time almost taking an Apple like approach. So Apple builds the software and hardware at the same time. So we built the the kind of flagship application and the platform at the same time.

And that made us build certain things that I think are different than other L1's and L2s. We definitely took different design choices. You can pay for gas with stable coins on Cello natively without account attraction. This is one example of one of those things that came out of that way of working.

We wanted it to just be really easy for normies to be able to transact right from the get- go. As soon as someone sends them a stable coin, they don't need to go and buy something else to be able to continue transacting.

And then we also realized that addressbased identifiers are just too complicated for most normies. And so that took us down the path of developing a protocol that allowed you to use phone numbers as your identifier. And that's something that now is is widely adopted throughout the cell ecosystem.

And it just makes it just so much easier for for people for normies. You know, they can effectively bootstrap what I like to call is the biggest social network in the world, which is the amalgamation of everyone's contact lists on on their phones in their pocket, bigger even than Facebook social graph.

And so features like this ultimately made Cello or make it you know to this day um you know almost this kind of consumerfriendly part of Ethereum right so I think a lot of people talk about how a lot of people are building consumer apps in Salana because of its kind of low cost and kind of you know maybe even mobile focus you can think of Salo now as as really kind of becoming the Ethereum kind of alternative to that.

And you know we're actually cheaper even than Salana when it comes to to transaction fees and so that's one example of how you know we can compete there but the other way that we've been able to compete is primarily by the realization of that that P2P payments focus through this partnership of of Opera that's come about in the last few years.

Opera, the company that that you may be familiar with, primarily known for browsers, they launched Mini Pay, which is this just amazing, super easy to use P2P payments wallet now on Cello, which leverages all of those features that I just talked about.

And it just makes it super easy for for anyone to effectively have a veno- like experience regardless of where they live. They don't have to be in the US, they can be anywhere in the world.

And so that's the the kind of the journey. Along the way we we transition to become an L2. And I'm happy to chat more about that as well. But you know, I think the the biggest TLDDR is that we've just been grinding on this use case for eight years now and and it's finally finally kind of working. It's finally taking off.

There's we're really just excited about.

Yeah, I think like if you go onto crypto Twitter and you kind of you know pay attention to the zeicist of the moment, it's it's like, you know, perexes, memecoin launchpads, all of this very exciting stuff that produce, you know, billion dollar size venture outcomes for like brief moments of time and then the fad kind of goes away.

You know, and I'm never going to fault anyone, any founder for ever pivoting trying to find product market fit. You know, like I think there's like a I think crypto Twitter especially is very harsh to founders that that pivot when pivoting is actually just a part of the regular startup experience.

Something about Cello is that Cello seemed to like identify P2P payments and kind of like al also like developing economies and has stayed just locked in on that focus since the get-go.

And like I I think when I'm gonna ask you, not right now, but I'm gonna ask you in a second to like kind of share some usage metrics. And I think maybe people who are like kind of following the crypto Twitter zeitgeist of what it means to be in crypto will might be surprised about like what actually Cello is doing over in the world of P2P payments and developing economies.

But talk to me a little bit about the whole P2P strategy. you identified it early, locked in on it, and has been laser focused on it ever since. Put me in your shoes maybe all the way back in in 2013 when Cello got started or maybe that maybe that's 2018. Yeah, 2018, excuse me. Okay, just off by five years.

Put me put me in your prethereum prevm. So put me back into your shoes in like in like 2018 and and what it's been like just to be laser focused on this part of the crypto economy.

Yeah. And you know what actually you know 2013 is is an interesting year. It's the year that you know I sold my first startup. And literally a week later I was at a music festival where I bumped into Brian Armstrong who sent me.

I knew there was something there. I knew I knew there was something in it's a podcast instinct. David could feel it as a host. That's why he went to 2013 He tells the Brian Armstrong story.

Wait, what music festival were you at? What kind of music does Brian like? Yeah, it was Outside Lands. It's kind of like the outside that San Francisco has. Yeah. And yeah, we were both just invited by actually by SVB to their Cabana.

And this was back when SVB, I guess, banked crypto exchanges super early on. And and yeah, and he was very excited obviously about Coinbase and and sent me some Bitcoin which I've kept to this day.

And you know the experience was really lovely and in in a way you can think of that as being actually inspiration for what we wanted to do but we just wanted to do it in a trustless decentralized way right but you got you got pled into crypto by Brian Armstrong. That's that's kind of cool at a music festival. Yeah that's kind of cool. That's a good story. That's a good that's a good way to come in this phase.

If only I went straight into crypto right then instead you know we had just sold our first company. I had to stay at the acquiring company for a while and it took a while before I was ready to to do do my next thing. But in hindsight, maybe maybe I should have done it right there and then.

But okay, so yeah, Ethereum gets it created, the EVM gets created and then you leave the company that put golden handcuffs on you for a while and then you're like, "Okay, let me apply the EVM to consumer use cases." Was that kind of the the the flow?

Exactly. I mean, I think back then, it's funny that, you know, suddenly payments is is kind of in vogue again. I mean, back then everyone was talking about, you know, how crypto can advance financial inclusion, how, you know, it's it's just going to change the world for everyone who who lives in a place where, you know, they have inflation or they have of an unstable government.

And and that was really what excited a lot of people. And it certainly excited us and the way we thought that we could have a big mark on the whole world is by creating global venom.

I think, you know, there was a time before you could send a text message to anyone in the world for basically free. And that, if you think about it, wasn't that long ago, right? It's really only when WhatsApp kind of created massive network effects that suddenly, you know, you could pretty much reliably send like a text message for free globally to anyone in the world.

and and that moment just happened, you know, just really suddenly. And the same thing is going to happen with payments. You will very soon I'm pretty certain of it, be able to send value, stable value to anyone in the world and have that value be immediately useful for the recipient in a way that works for pretty much everyone, even normies.

And you know, obviously we're there for for people who are cryptosavvy, but to get there for everyone in the world. We're still we're still working towards it. This is ultimately the mission and the vision behind what we started 8 years ago and we're still relentlessly working towards that.

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It's so fascinating because back in 2013, in fact, I think this is part of like the Coinbase founding vision. It was more about the payments use case. You even look at the first lines of um what was a a peer-to-peer payment network. Isn't this in the you know Satoshi white paper? It was all about payments.

It was like when are we going to get to the day where you can buy your cup of coffee with Bitcoin at your local Starbucks, right? That was always the dream. I I maybe you said payments is very much in vogue and we'll talk about that. I'm wondering from your perspective being in the space for so long, observing it, actually working on this project, a payments project in crypto for 8 years, why now?

Because to some people, this will look like an overnight success. Maybe they'll go and they'll be like, uh, oh, the genius the genius act did this or something like that. From my perspective, it feels like a tech tree that crypto has been building out.

I always I always get my the tech trees in like civilization. You ever play that game where you sort of, you know, your civilization discovers mathematics and then they can branch off to physics and then they can get, you know, nukes or something like that?

was like crypto had to have cheap block space I think because that was really expensive the whole time on Bitcoin on Ethereum and then also had to have some sort of a a payment type of asset because for all that Bitcoiners have talked about Bitcoin for Starbucks that there's a trade-off there between like using your Bitcoin for at Starbucks and it being a store of value asset that you don't actually want to spend it.

And So, stable coins were the other unlock. I see cheapbox, block space, and stable coins as the tech tree reason that crypto is now like really focused on the payments use case and everything's kind of falling out from that. What's your take?

Yeah, so I think you know back in 2018, I think we were looking at this exactly the same way. We're like, what do we need? We need scalability. We need ease of use. We need stable coins. Obviously, stable coins, you can't transact with a, you know, volatile asset, especially not a store of value. Like, you want to borrow against a store of value and transact with that. You don't want to spend your precious ETH or Bitcoin.

And and so we built Cello with all of these things in mind. We made it was probably the first EVM proof ofstake network with really high scalability from day one. We even built our own stablecoin protocol into the platform which we have now since spun out through a pretty cool DAO spin out which I don't know if it's the first of its kind but certainly we were pretty stoked to to kind of pull that off.

And I think actually that stable coin doing it ourselves in hindsight was maybe a mistake you know because we weren't incredibly neutral and it it took longer were we were incredibly neutral on the stable coin front and it took longer for folks like USDC and USDT to come to sell.

Since that's been out, USCC and USCT have come to sell. We've become fully credibly neutral when it comes to stable coins. There's now tons of people deploying stable coins on on Cello and and I think that probably, you know, in hindsight maybe slowed us down a little bit.

But the thing that ultimately I think is needed beyond those things is bootstrapping network effects. It's very difficult to to get everyone in the world to agree on what they want to use to transact. You need to start in smaller markets, grow those, get really dense network effects and then use those to pull more and more people in.

And you know this is what certainly Venmo did with kind of this focus on college markets that they started with. And this is what mini pay is doing with a focus on very key set of emerging markets where really the utility of having something like this just is 10x better than what they have available.

Right? Nobody needs global Venmo in the US right now because they have Venmo. And and so you need to start somewhere where people don't have something as good as Venmo. And so that's been a big focus and it's just taken a while to really bootstrap those network effects.

Can we get a cross-section of the usage of Cello? I want to I want to learn about the qualitative and the quantitative usage of Zello. So, how many people are using the chain? What whatever your metric preferred preferred metric is, monthly active users, daily active users, whatever. And then what's just the typical cross-section of what that usage actually is?

There are on the order of 700k daily active users. Is that wallets? Daily active addresses. Yes. Okay. However because mini pay uses this phone number based identifier system that requires you to verify your your phone number.

I think we have a lot of conviction that those are I think the majority of those users are are likely mini users and we know that those users tend not to sibble because you need to have a Google account and a phone number to to onboard.

And so I think there's a lot of it's a lot certainly a lot harder to cable than than if you just use addresses.

Wait, this will actually shock people. So you think you have around 700,000 daily active users on.

So if you go to grow the pie and you look at active addresses across the Ethereum ecosystem, you'll see that we are the number one L2. We overtook base late last year. We are ahead of Polygon even and most of the time we're also ahead of Ethereum mainet as well in terms of active users. Exactly. Yeah. Okay.

This is on on grow the pie. Where would I find this? On chains. Chains. Let's see. You go to grow the pie fundamentals maybe. Okay. Okay. Mhm. I see it. Wow. Okay. And then what's the what's the typical profile of what people are doing? Is it all stable coin payments?

Yeah. So I'd say there's three big use cases now on on Cello. So there's P2P payments driven primarily by Mini Pay. There's onchain FX driven primarily by Mento stable coins and increasingly there's decentralized identity through self protocol self.xyz.

So these are the big ones I think. When it comes to users, P2P payments are certainly driving the most users. When it comes to volume, I think P2P payments and onchain FX is driving a lot of volume. But when it comes to kind of new and exciting ZK use cases, you know, self is is really leading the way.

So this is kind of what p my interest in solo in the first place because we have a splattering of chains around that have different kind of brands with them. Tron is the tether payments chain. We have a newer startup called Codex doing the forex trying to penetrate into the forex markets. We have worldcoin doing the proof of personhood utility value.

What else do we got? There's other other things like this. Cello's got a toe in all of those things, but like it doesn't really have the brand of any of those things like like payments for example. Why why do you think Tron has the payments brand instead of sell? I don't know how your metrics stack up to Tron. I know I know Tron's metrics are like, you know, impressive.

Not to say Tron does hasn't deserved it, but like to what degree do you think like for example Tron has the payments chain brand and not Cello?

Yeah. So, actually, if you go to Tether's stats page, you actually can see that when it comes to weekly active users, Cell is actually ahead of Tron now. With I think we peaked at 3.3 million weekly active addresses that are transacting in USDT.

So certainly, I mean, Cello is like Ethereum's answer to Tron 100%. You know, I think Tron certainly had an earlier start and has done well, but you know, I think we're we're coming right, you know, we're nipping at their heels and in some for some metrics even overtaking them.

And so, yeah, really really excited about a lot of these stats like now finally pushing us into into the lead. It's been it's been a pretty long and arduous effort to to competing in strong because they they do have a lot of mind share and they are quite globally recognized.

Mayor, can we get into the qualitative for for a moment? So some really impressive metrics particularly on the daily activives, right? So this implies at some level the type of user obviously Tron is is by far a leader among sort of stable coin payment chains in terms of total value locked right there's so much USDT on top of Tron but you just said when it comes to daily activives these would be like kind of smaller payments weekly activives okay uh that CO is actually taking a lead so this sort of implies that you're not dealing with whales so much as you're dealing with ordinary ary people and ordinary wallets.

Can you take us through more the qualitative? Tell us a story about a user of Cello. What are they doing and how are they using it? Where do they live? Maybe what's their daily active usage of Cello actually like right now?

A lot of those users are on Minipay and Minipe has historically focused on the African continent. in large part because they have onboarded a lot of users who are using Opera Mini which is their like high-speed light browser targeting emerging markets.

I think they have something like 1 billion installs 100 million monthly active users of Oper Mini and they embedded mini pay into into that browser. It's also available standalone, but I think to get a lot of those users onboarded, they embedded into the browser.

And so now they're focusing primarily on on other emerging markets, LATAM and Asia, but initially, there was a lot of focus on on Africa. And so one really, I think, compelling story that that I've heard, of a mini pigg user, is this yoga instructor in Malawi.

So this yoga instructor in Malawi when COVID hit he had to close down his yoga studio and he he took his business online and I think just because the time zones lined up he somehow started getting customers in Europe and then he ended up getting I think towards the end like the majority of his customers in I think something like Norway in markets around Scandinavia.

and he for the longest time was using Moneygram to to have these people pay for their lessons. And then he came across mini pay and and realized that it was even with the users having to on-ramp and pay on-ramping fees in Europe and even with him having to pay offramping fees in in Malawi it was still I think 40% cheaper than money grab.

Since then, mini pay has also removed these on and off ramping fees. So, it's even more advantageous. And so, this was a big unlock for this person. He got to keep more of the money that he was, you know, earning.

And the other thing that he was very happy about was he could keep it in dollars when he received it and only needed to convert it to local currency when he wanted to spend it. And so he was actually able to hedge currency risk and inflation and all of that basically without any additional effort.

So that's one interesting use case is is people who you know the world is the workforce is becoming increasingly global but it's still hard to pay people globally. like if you want to you know hire say I don't know a software engineer in Nigeria it's being quite difficult without crypto to to pay pay these folks software engineers you know they I think they're they can be relatively cryptosavvy but if you want to hire I don't know some sort of other freelancer that that maybe is you know more of a normie type person then mini is increasingly becoming a really great way for these people to earn money overseas.

And Mini Pay launched something pretty cool recently. They added the ability to for anyone in the world to create either a US dollar or European bank account that's tied to their self-custodial wallet. And so they don't even need to explain to their potential employer that they're using crypto.

As long as they can receive a bank transfer or as long as the employer can or a client can send money to one of these bank accounts either in Europe or the US, then suddenly anyone in the world can start getting paid regardless of where they live, regardless of how difficult it's been historically to to to send money to those places.

And so we're just seeing a lot of examples of that. So there's, you know, I think four different use cases. We touched upon the freelancer use case. There's the obviously remittance use case. You're sending money to family members. You can do that with Mini Pay really easily.

There's a saving use case. You just want to hedge inflation and and local currency risk. And so you want to have some dollars and and earn some yield on those dollars. And then finally there's this new use case that that many pageages just launched called pay as local.

And that is another really interesting exciting one. And to give you another kind of story, there's this community member Nico in in the solar ecosystem who was at its safari recently and he he was using a tuk tuk to get around as one does in that area and he actually had a bit of an accident so that the tuk tuk flipped over while he was in it.

Luckily he was fine, but all of his belongings went flying everywhere. And in the end he actually lost his wallet and he his physical wallet or or his crypto wallet. No, no, his physical wallet. Sorry. Okay. Yes. Good. It's a relevant question on this podcast. Absolutely.

And I mean you can imagine you're traveling, you're you're in a country that you, you know, maybe you haven't visited before, and you lose your physical wallet. Normally, you know, that's like a pretty big emergency. You need to, I don't know, find ways to to get a new credit card. Maybe even like you change your plans.

He instead proceeded to do every transaction in Kenya and then later Nigeria because he didn't cut his trip short. He actually flew to Nigeria and continued. He did everything with Mini Pay because Mini Pay now lets you pay with Empessa anywhere in Kenya.

In Nigeria you can pay using the local rails there. In Argentina for Dev Connect they launched Marcato Pago support. You can pay anywhere maros is supported in Brazil. You can pay with pix, you know, etc.

And so, you know, this is kind of probably a more useful use case for maybe some folks in in this in your audience, you know, who might travel to crypto conferences and and might find themselves in situations where, you know, credit cards might not be accepted. Increasingly, I think Mini Pay will will have folks like that covered.

But I think the primary use cases still continue to be kind of the freelancer, the remittance use cases and and the savings use cases. And for those maybe your listeners, you know, have friends and family who who might be in those boats and and if so, you know, I'd highly recommend just directing, you know, those friends and family members to to mini.to because it's just it just does a wonderful job with these use cases.

Yeah. The Marcato Pago example this rings true for me is and probably for many listeners who just went down to to Dev Connect in Bonosar in Argentina. Marcato Pago is just kind of like the last mile payments provider across Argentina. It's it's like our stripe. It's like our stripe.

If you go and like find that little square little tap to pay thing inside of any merchant in America, they have the marcato pago down there. And like I like prior to Malay getting elected, it was imposs it wasn't impossible to use credit cards, but you would just wouldn't do that because they would do a 40 to 70% markup because it would run through the banking commercial banking layer of Argentina, which would, you know, be very heavily managed by the government, which would just give you a terrible exchange rate because they're using the credit card networks.

you have these in the intermediary commercial banking layers who have this like control from the government to give you a pretty terrible exchange rate which is like a source of revenue for both the banks and also the government that exchange rate has gone down since Malay got into office it went from like 40% exchange to like 5 to 6% so you know it's not it's not anything we would ever tolerate in America but still people just kind of tolerate it now is so much more low low using their credit cards in Argentina.

But that's because like I didn't I didn't have Mini Pay on my phone. I wish I had known. Uh but had I had stable coins, that fee would have been zero and it would have been a P2P payment between me and the merchant. And stable coins are getting adopted very heavily in Argentina because merchants found out that if they don't do if they take stable coins instead of credit cards they get instant settlement which means they get access to that capital immediately as opposed to like a bi-weekly settlement period of the credit card networks which then are acrewing float as part of their business model but instead of giving it to the businesses they're acrewing the yield on the float that they have and then the businesses don't actually see that money for like one to two weeks later.

And so this is why stable coins in Argentina are being adopted so heavily is because they get that access to that capital immediately upon the actual transaction going through and then they can actually just use that to invest in their business. And it's to me it's like a very bankless allian ethos. It's like, you know, merchant and consumer. Consumer pays merchant directly with stable coins and you cut out the commercial banks. You cut out the government, which is great. Uh, and and it's a more efficient use of capital.

And you and I want to connect this back to Mini Pay. This is Manipay, this organization that I have a few questions on that's kind of facilitating this on the Cello blockchain, you know, the cryptoeconomic decentralized protocol on the internet. But also, it seems that Cell Pay has really done the hard thing of solving the last mile problem by integrating local merchants in a bunch of different regions. You talked about this, but I really want to highlight this just one more time.

The virtual bank account, where like if you need to be paid by your employer or by someone, they will spin up a virtual bank account. They'll just give you here's your deposit number. Kind of in the same way that like if somebody's trying to pay me stable coins and I'll go find an address and I'll share them the address and they can send it to me. Mini Pay spins up a virtual bank account for your local jurisdiction.

I don't know if they're integrated all over the world, but you just have like the deposit and routing number and then they map that to your stable coin wallet and when the hundred or $1,000 bank transfer comes in, it converts to stable coins on the back end and then deposit it into your account as stable coins in Mini Pay on Cello. And I don't know how much of the globe that they've integrated, but from my conversations with you, Mark, it seems to be a decent amount of the world of the globe. Is there anything react to anything I just said?

Totally. And they do it one for one which is pretty amazing. So they subsidize the exchange fees and the onampies. For the virtual accounts, it's currently only European and US bank accounts. Okay. But for but still the goal of mini pay is to do is to solve the last mile problem right so yeah and I think you know maybe coming back to Ryan's question earlier like why now you know we have spent you know again we've just been grinding on this for so long we spent so much time working to nurture on and off ramps in emerging markets we started an ecosystem fund way back when we started a incubator program with, you know, some ecosystem folks doing wonderful work over at Silo Camp.

And it took years for companies to form, for companies to to raise capital and and to launch successful on and off ramping companies throughout a lot of these emerging markets. And only now can people easily on an off-ramp in a lot of these markets. and and so I think that that certainly helped and Minipay has I don't know I think probably like 20 to 30 on an offramp partners that that have integrated globally maybe even more at this point and they allow you to own an offramp not necessarily as easily as having a virtual bank account you know it's still more like a kind of a moon type experience in some cases but more and more Now they're offering these really seamless experiences where for places where money tends to originate like you know the US and Europe it's really easy to send money in using one of these bank accounts and for places where you want to spend that money they're now making it really easy for you to spend without the on and off app experience you just scan a marata product QR code and then it just it just gets paid directly and it's It's finally happening. It just took forever to to get all of these companies to form and to start offering these services.

And I think that's ultimately why also why crypto will win in this category, right? Because sometimes people ask me like why why can't Venmo just become global, right? Why why does global Venmo have to be on crypto rails? And I think the answer is you need just a crap ton of companies with a crap ton of licenses in each of these markets to row in the same direction work together to create this amazing experience. And it's just for various reasons too difficult for any one company to do that well. Um, but if you want to have multiple companies doing it well and delivering this amazing experience, well then it turns out that crypto is actually the perfect way to incentivize a lot of folks to grow in the same direction. And so it's it's working really nicely in that regard with STO.

Yeah, it kind of reminds me of Andreas Antonopoulos's idea of the festival of the commons of just like when we all when you know company A with license A operates on the same blockchain as company B with license B well those two things