OpenClaw: The Viral AI Agent that Broke the Internet - Peter Steinberger | Lex Fridman Podcast #491

I watch my agent happily click the I'm not a robot button. I made the agent very aware, like it knows what its source code is.

It understands how it sits and runs in its own harness. It knows where documentation is. It knows which model it runs. It understands its own system that made it very easy for an agent to, oh, you don't like anything you just prompted into existence, and then the agent would just modify its own software.

People talk about selfmodifying software. I just built it.

I actually think vibe coding is a slur. You prefer agentic engineering?

Yeah. I always tell people I do agentic engineering, and then maybe after 3:00 a.m. I switch to vibe coding and then I have regrets on the next day.

Well, walk of shame. Yeah. You just have to clean up and fix your shit. We've all been there.

I used to write really long prompts. And by writing, I mean, I don't write. I talk. These hands are too precious for writing now. I just use bespoke prompts to build my software.

So you for real with all those terminals are using voice?

Yeah, I used to do it very extensively to the point where there was a period where I lost my voice.

I mean I have to ask you just curious I know you've probably gotten huge offers from major companies. Can you speak to who you're considering working with?

The following is a conversation with Peter Steinberger, creator of OpenClaw, formerly known as Moldbot, Claudebot, Claudis, Claude, spelled with a W, as in lobster claw. Not to be confused with Claude, the AI model from Anthropic, spelled with a U. In fact, this confusion is the reason Anthropic kindly asked Peter to change the name to OpenClaw.

So, what is OpenClaw? It's an open source AI agent that has taken over the tech world in a matter of days, exploding in popularity, reaching over 180,000 stars on GitHub and spawning the social network mold book where AI agents post manifestos and debate consciousness, creating a mix of excitement and fear in the general public in a kind of AI psychosis, a mix of clickbait, fear-mongering, and genuine, fully justifiable concern about the role of AI in our digital interconnected human world.

OpenClaw, as its tagline states, is the AI that actually does things. It's an autonomous AI assistant that lives on your computer. Has access to all of your stuff if you let it. Talks to you through Telegram, WhatsApp, Signal, iMessage, and whatever else messaging client uses whatever AI model you like, including Claude Opus 4.6 and GPT 5.3 codecs all to do stuff for you.

Many people are calling this one of the biggest moments in the recent history of AI since the launch of Chad GPT in November 2022. The ingredients for this kind of AI agent were all there. But putting it all together in a system that definitively takes a step forward over the line from language to agency, from ideas to actions, in a way that created a useful assistant that feels like one who gets you and learns from you in an open- source community-driven way is the reason Open Claw took the internet by storm.

Its power in large part comes from the fact that you can give it access to all of your stuff and give it permission to do anything with that stuff in order to be useful to you. This is very powerful, but it is also dangerous. Open claw represents freedom. But with freedom comes responsibility.

With it, you can own and have control over your data. But precisely because you have this control, you also have the responsibility to protect it from cyber security threats of various kinds. There are great ways to protect yourself, but the threats and vulnerabilities are out there. Again, a powerful AI agent with system level access is a security minefield, but it also represents the future because when done well and securely, it can be extremely useful to each of us humans as a personal assistant.

We discuss all of this with Peter and also discuss his big picture programming and entrepreneurship life story which I think is truly inspiring. He spent 13 years building PSPDF kit which is a software used on a billion devices. He sold it and for a brief time fell out of love with programming, vanished for 3 years and then came back, rediscovered his love for programming and built in a very short time an open- source AI agent that took the internet by storm. He is in many ways the symbol of the AI revolution happening in the programming world.

There was the Chadipati moment in 2022, the Deepseek moment in 2025, and now in 26, we're living through the open claw moment, the age of the lobster, the start of the agentic AI revolution. What a time to be alive.

This is a Lex Freedman podcast. To support it, please check out our sponsors in the description where you can also find links to contact me, ask questions, give feedback, and so on. And now, dear friends, here's Peter Steinberger, the one and only, the Claude father.

Actually, Benjamin predicted in this tweet, "The following is a conversation with Claude, a respected crustaceian." Is a hilarious looking picture of a lobster in a suit. So, I think the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Let's go to this moment when you built a prototype in 1 hour. That was the early version of Open Claw. I think this story is really inspiring to a lot of people because this prototype led to something that just took the internet by storm and became the fastest growing repository in GitHub history with now over 175,000 stars. So, what was the story of the 1hour prototype?

You know, I wanted that since April. A personal assistant AI personal assistant?

Yeah. And I played around with some other things. like even stuff that gets all my WhatsApp and I could just run queries on it. That was back when we had GPD 4.1 with the 1 million context window and I pulled in all the data and I asked him questions like what makes this friendship meaningful?

Mhm. And I got some some really profound results. like I sent it to my friends and they got like teary eyes. So there's something there.

Yeah. But then I thought all the labs will work on that. So I moved on to other things and that was still very much in my early days of experimenting and playing. You know, you have to that's how you learn. You just like you do stuff and you play.

And time flew by and it was November. I wanted to make sure that the thing I started is actually happening. I was annoyed that it didn't exist. So, it just prompted it into existence.

I mean, that's the beginning of the hero's journey of the entrepreneur, right? And you've even with your original story with PSPDF kit, it's like, why does this not exist? Let me build it. And again, here's whole different realm, but similar maybe spirit?

Yes. I had this problem. I tried to show PDF on an iPad which should not be hard. This is like 15 years ago, something like that. Yeah. Like the most the most random thing ever. And suddenly I had this problem and I wanted to help a friend and there was there was it was not like nothing existed but it was just not good. I'm like like I tried it and it was like very meh like I can do this better.

By the way, for people who don't know, this led to the development of PSDF kit that's used on a billion devices. So the it turns out that it's pretty useful to be able to open a PDF. You could also make the joke that I'm really bad at naming like named number five on the current project and even PSPDF doesn't really roll from the tongue.

Anyway, so you said screw it, why don't I do it? So what was the what was the prototype? What was the thing that you What was the magical thing that you built in a short amount of time that you're like this might actually work as an agent where I talk to it and it does things?

There was like one of my projects before already did something where I could bring my terminals onto the web and then I could like interact with them but they also would be terminals on my Mac. Mhm. Vibe tunnel which was like a a weekend hack project that was still very early and it was cloud code times. You got a dopamine hit when you got something right and now I get like mad when you get something wrong and you had a really great not to take a tangent but a great blog post describing that you converted vibe tunnel you vibe coded vibe tunnel from Typescript into Zigg of all programming languages with a single prompt. One prompt, one shot, convert the entire codebase into zig.

Yeah, there was this one thing where part of the architecture was took too much memory. Every terminal used like a node. Um, and I wanted to change it to Rust. And I mean, I can do it. I can manually figure it all out, but all my automated attempts failed miserably. And then I revisited four or five months later and I'm like, "Okay, now let's use something even more experimental and I and I just typed convert this and this part to sik and then let codeex run off and it basically got it right. There was one little detail that I had to like modify afterwards, but it just ran for overnight or like six hours and just did the thing and it's like this is just mind-blowing.

So that's on the LLM programming side refactoring. But uh back to the actual story of the of the prototype. So how did V tunnel connect to the first prototype where your like agents can actually work?

Well, that was still very limited, you know, like I had this one experiment with WhatsApp, then I had this experiment and both felt like not the right answer. And then my search was literally just hooking up WhatsApp to cloud code. One shot the CLI message comes in. I call the CLI with minus P. It does its magic. I get the string back and I send it back to WhatsApp. And I built this in 1 hour and I felt already felt really cool. It's like, oh, I could I can like talk to my computer, right? This that that was cool.

But I I wanted images cuz I I often use images when I prompt. I think it's such a such an efficient way to give the agent more context. And they're really good at figuring out what I mean if it's like a a weird cropped screenshot. Um, so I used it a lot and I wanted to do that in WhatsApp as well. Also like you know just you run around, you see like a post of an event, you just make a screenshot and like figure out if I have time there, if this is good, if my friends are maybe up for that like images seemed important.

So I I worked a few it took me a few more hours to actually get that right. Um, and then it was just I I used it a lot and funny enough that was just before I went on a trip to Marakekesh with my friends for birthday trip and there it was even better because internet was a little shaky but WhatsApp just works you know it's like doesn't matter you have like edge it still works. WhatsApp is just it's just made really well. So I ended up using it a lot. Um translate is for me explain me find me places like you just having a clanker doing having Google for you that was basically it was still nothing built but it still could do so much.

So if we talk about the full journey that's happening there with the agent, you're just sending on this very thin line WhatsApp message via CLI is going to cloud code and cloud code is doing all kinds of heavy work and coming back to you with a thin message?

Yeah, it was slow because every time I boot up the CLI, but it it was really cool already and it could just use all the things that I already had built. I built like a whole bunch of CLI stuff over the months. So, it it felt really powerful.

There is something magical about that experience that's hard to put into words. being able to use a chat client to talk to an agent versus like sitting behind a computer and like I don't know using cursor or even using cloud code in the terminal. It's a different experience than be able to sit back and talk to it. I mean it seems like a trivial step but it's in some in some sense it's a it's like a phase shift in the integration of AI into your life how it feels right?

Yeah. Yeah. I I read this tweet this morning where someone said, "Oh, there's no magic in it. It's just like it does this and this and this and this and this and this and this and it it almost feels like a hobby just as curse or perplexity." And I'm like, "Well, if that's a hobby, that's kind of a compliment, you know? They're like, they're not doing too bad." Um, thank you. I guess guess I mean isn't isn't isn't magic often just like you take a lot of things that are already there but bring them together in new ways like I don't there's no yeah maybe there's no magic in there but sometimes just rearranging things and like adding a few new ideas is all the magic that you need.

Yeah, it's really hard to convert into words what is what is magic about a thing. If you look at the the scrolling on an iPhone, why is that so pleasant? There's a lot of elements about that interface that makes it incredibly pleasant that is fundamental to the experience of using a smartphone. And it's like, okay, all the components were there. Scrolling was there, everything was there, and nobody did it. And afterwards, it felt so obvious. That's so obvious, right? But still, um, now the moment where it it blew my mind was when when I used it a lot and at some point I just sent it a message and and then a typing indicator appeared and and I'm like, wait, I didn't build that. Uh, it's only it only has image support, so what is it even doing? And then it would just reply.

What was the thing you sent it?

Oh, just a random questions like, hey, what about this in this restaurant? you know, cuz we were just running around and and checking out the city. So that's why I I didn't didn't even think when I used to because sometimes when you're in a hurry, typing is annoying. So Oh, you did an audio message?

Yeah. And it just it just worked. And I'm like And it's not supposed to work because you don't you didn't give it that. No, I literally capability. I literally wrote, "How the fuck do you do that?" And it was like, "Yeah, the med did the following." He sent me a message, but it only only was a file a no file ending. So I checked out the header of the file and it found it was like ous. So I used ffmpeact to convert it. And then I wanted to use whisper but didn't had it installed. But then I found the openi key and just use curl to send a file to to openai to translate and here I am.

And I just looked at the message. I'm like, "Oh, wow. You didn't teach it any of those things and the agent just figured it out that has to do all those conversions, the translation. They figured out the API, it figured out which program to use, all those kinds of things and you were just absent mindly just send an audio message came back. So clever even because you would have gone the whisper local path. You would have had to download a model. It would have been too slow. So like there's so much world knowledge in there, so much creative problem solving. A lot of it I think mapped from if you get really good at coding that means you have to be really good at general purpose program solving. So that's a skill right and that just maps into other domains. So it had the problem of like what is this file with no file ending? Let's figure it out.

Um, and that's where it kind of clicked for me was like I was like very impressed and somebody sent a pull request for Discord support and I'm like this is a WhatsApp relay that doesn't doesn't fit at all. At that time it was called W relay. Yeah. And so I debated with me like do I want that? Do I not want that? And then I thought, well, maybe maybe I do that cuz that could be a cool way to show people cuz I so far I did it in WhatsApp with like groups, you know, but don't really want to give my phone number to every internet stranger. Yeah. Um, journalists managed to do that anyhow now. So that's a different story. Uh, so I I emerged it from Shadow who helped me a lot with the whole project. So, thank you. And and I put my my bot in there on Discord.

Yeah. No security cuz I didn't I hadn't built sandboxing in yet. I I just prompted it to like only listen to me. And then some people came and tried to hack it. And I just or like just watched and I just kept working in the open, you know, like I used my agent to build my agent harness and to test like various stuff. And that's very quickly when it clicked for people. So it's almost like it needs to be experienced. And from that time on that was January the first. I I got my first really influencer being a fan did videos the kids. Thank you. And and from there on I saw I started gaining up speed and at the same time my my sleep cycle went shorter and shorter because I I felt the storm coming and I just worked my ass off to get it to into a state where it's kind of good.

There's a few components. We'll talk about how it all works, but basically you're able to talk to it using WhatsApp, Telegram, Discord. So, that's a component that you have to get right. Yeah. And then you have to figure out the agentic loop. You have the gateway. You have the harness. You have all those components that make it all just work nicely.

Yeah. It felt like factorial times infinite, right? I I feel like I built my little my little playground. Like I never had so much fun than building this project, you know, like you have like oh I go like level one aentic loop. What can I do there? How can I be smart at queuing messages? How can I make it more human? Like oh then I had this idea of because the loop always the agent always replies something but you don't always want an agent to reply something in the group chat. So I gave him this no reply token. So I gave him an option to shut up so it it feels more natural. That's level two. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. On the on the agendic loop and then I go to memory, right? You want them to like remember stuff. So maybe maybe the and the ultimate boss is continuous reinforcement learning. But I'm I'm like at I feel like I'm level two or three with markdown files and the vector database.

And then you you can go to level community management. You can go to level website and marketing. There's just so many hats that you have to have on. Uh not even talking about native apps. That's just like infinite different levels and infinite level ups you can do. So the whole time you're having fun.

We should say that for the most part through this whole process you're a one-man team. There's people helping, but you're doing so much of the key core development. Yeah. And having fun. You did in January 6,600 commits, probably more. I sometimes posted the meme. I'm limited by the technology of my time. I could do more if agents would be faster. But we should say you're running multiple agents at the same time.

Yeah. Depending on how much I slept and how difficult of the tasks I work on between four and 10 four and 10 agents. Uh there's so many possible directions speaking of factorial that we can go here. But one uh big picture one is why do you think your work open claw one in this world if you look at 2025 so many startups so many companies are doing kind of agentic type stuff or claiming to and here open claw comes in and destroys everybody like why did you win?

Because they all take themselves too serious. Yeah. Like it's hard to compete against someone who's just there to have fun. Yeah. I wanted it to be fun. I wanted it to be weird. And if you see like all the all the lobster stuff online, um I think I I managed weird. I you know, for the longest time, the only the only way to install it was get clone pmp build pmppm gateway. Like you clone it, you build it, you run it. Um and then the the agent I made the agent very aware like it knows that it is what it is source code is. It understands how it sits and runs in its own harness. It knows where the documentation is. It knows which model it runs. It knows if you turn on verbose or or reasoning mode. like I I wanted to be more humanlike so it understands its own system that made it very easy for an agent to oh you don't like anything you just prompted into existence and then the agent would just modify its own software um you know we have people talk about selfmodifying software I just built it and didn't even I didn't even plan it so much it just happened.

Can you actually speak to that cuz it's just fascinating so you have this piece of software a certain type script. Yeah. That's able to via the agentic loop modify itself. I mean, what a moment to be alive in the history of humanity, in the history of programming. Here's a thing that's used by a huge amount of people to do incredibly powerful things in their lives. And that very system can rewrite itself, can modify itself. Can you just like speak to the power of that? Like isn't that incredible? Like when did you first close the loop on that?

Oh, because that's how I built it as well. You know, most of it is built by Codex, but often times I when I debug it, I I use self introspection so much. It's like, hey, what tools do you see? Can you call the tool yourself? Oh, like what error do you see? Read the source code. Figure out what's the problem. Like I just found it an incredibly fun way to that the agent the very agent and software that you use is used to debug itself. So that it felt just natural that everybody does that and that it led to so many so many pull requests by people who never wrote software. I mean it also did show that people never wrote software. So I call them prompt requests in the end, but I don't want to like pull that down because every time someone made the first pull request is a win for our society, you know, like it like doesn't matter how how shitty it is, you got to start somewhere. So I know there's like this whole big movement of people complain about open source and the quality of PRs and a whole different level of problems but on a different level I found it I found it very meaningful that that I built something that people love to think of so much that they actually start to learn how open source works.

Yeah. You were the opencloud project was a first polar request. You were the first for so many. That is magical. So many people that don't know how to program are taking their first step into the programming world with this. Isn't that a step up for humanity? Isn't that cool?

Creating builders. Yeah. Like the bar to do that was so high and like with agents and with the right software, it just like went lower and lower. I don't know. I was at a at a I also organized another type of meetup. I call it I called it Claude Code Anonymous. Uh you can get the inspiration from now. I call it Agents Anonymous for for reasons. Agents Anonymous. And oh, it's so funny on so many levels. I'm sorry. Go ahead.

Yeah. And there was this one guy who who talked to me. like I run this design agency and we we never had custom software and now I have like 25 little web services for various things that help me in my business and I don't even know how they work but they work and he was just like very happy that my stuff solves some of his problems and he was like curious enough that he actually came to like a a gentic meetup even though He's he doesn't really know how software works.

Can we actually uh rewind a little bit and uh tell the saga of the name change? First of all, it started out as W relay. Yeah. And then it went to Clauders. Claudes. Yeah. You know, when I when I built it in the beginning, my agent had no personality. It was just it was Claude Code. Slightly psychopantic oppos. And I when you talk to a friend on WhatsApp, they don't talk like cloud code. So I wanted I felt this I just didn't it didn't feel right. So I I wanted to give it a personality, make it spicier, make it Yeah. something. By the way, that's actually hard to put into words as well. And we should mention that of course you create the soulm inspired by anthropics constitutional AI work. how to make it spicy partially. It picked up a little bit from me, you know, like those things are text completion engines in a way. So, so I I I had fun working with it and then I told it to how I wanted it to interact with me and just like write your own each and D um give yourself a name and I mean I don't even know how the whole the whole lobster I mean people only do lobster originally it was actually lobster in a in a TARDIS cuz I'm also a big Doctor Who fan. Was there a space lobster? I heard. What's that have to do with anything?

Yeah, I just wanted to make it weird. There was no There was no big grand plan. I was just having fun here. Oh, so cuz the lobster is already weird and then the space lobster isn't extra weird?

Yeah. Yeah. Cuz the tard is basically the the harness but cannot call it Tardis. So we call it clawis. So that was name number two. Yeah. And then it never really rolled off the tongue. So when more people came again, I talked with my agent, Claude. At least that's what I used to call him now. Claw spelled with a W C L A W D. Yeah. Versus C L A U D E from Enthropic. Yeah. Which is part of what makes it funny. I think the play on the letters and the words and the turtis and the lobster and the space lobster is hilarious, but I can see why it can lead into problems.

Yeah, they didn't find it so funny. So then I got the domain Clawbot and I just I love the domain and it was like short, it was catchy. I'm like, "Yeah, let's do that." I didn't I didn't think it would be that big at this time. Um, and then just when it exploded, I got kudos a very friendly email from one of the employees that they didn't like the name. One of the anthropic employees. Yeah. So, actually kudos cuz they could have just sent a a lawyer letter, but they've been nice about it. But also like you have to change this and fast. And I asked for 2 days because changing a name is hard cuz you have to find everything, you know, Twitter handle, domains, npm packages, uh, docker registry, GitHub stuff, and everything has to be you need a set of everything. And also can we comment on the fact that you're increasingly attacked followed by crypto folks which I think you mentioned somewhere that that means the name change had to be because they were trying to snipe they're trying to steal and so you had to be the name I mean from the engineer perspective it's just fascinating you had to make the name change atomic make sure it's changed everywhere at once.

Yeah, I failed very hard at that. You did? I I underestimated those people. Um, it's a it's a very interesting subculture. Like it everything circles around. I probably get a lot wrong and we probably get hate for that if you say that, but there's like bags app and then they they tokenize everything. And they they did the same back with Swipe Tunnel, but to a much smaller degree, it was not that annoying. But on this project, they've been they've been swarming me. They they like every half an hour someone came into Discord and and and spammed it and we had to block the we have like server rules and one of the rules was one of the rules is no mentioning of butter for obvious reasons and one was no talk about finance stuff or crypto um because I'm I just not interested in that and this is a space about the project and not about some finance stuff. But yeah, they came in and and spammed and annoying. And on Twitter, they would ping me all the time. My my notification feed was unusable. I I could barely see actual people talking about the stuff because it was like swarms. Mhm. And everybody sent me hashes. Um and they all try me to claim the fees like we helping the project claim the fees. No, you're actually harming the project. You're like disrupting my work and I am not interested in any fees. I'm first of all, I'm financially comfortable. Second of all, I don't want to support that. Um because it's so far the worst form of online harassment that I've experienced.

Yeah, there's a lot of toxicity in the crypto world. It's sad because the technology of cryptocurrency is fascinating and powerful and maybe will define the future of money but the actual community around that there's so much toxicity there's so much greed there's so much trying to get a shortcut to manipulate to to steal to snipe to to to game the system somehow to get money all this kind of stuff it uh I mean it's the human nature I suppose when you connect human nature with money and greed and uh and especially in the online world with anonymity and all that kind of stuff, but from the engineering perspective, it makes your life challenging when Anthropic reaches out. You have to do a name change and then there there's there's like all these like Game of Thrones uh or Lord of the Rings armies of different kinds you have to be aware of.

There was no perfect name and I didn't sleep for two nights. I was under high pressure. Um, I was trying to get like a good set of domains and you know, not cheap, not easy because in this in this state of the internet, you basically have to buy domains if you want to have a good set. And and then another another email came in that um the lawyers are getting uneasy. again friendly but also just adding more stress to my situation already. So at this point I was just like sorry there's not a word fuck it and I just I just renamed it to moldbot cuz that was the set of domains I had. I was not really happy but I thought it it'll be fine. And I tell you everything that could go wrong did go wrong. Everything that could go wrong did go wrong. It's incredible. Um I I thought I I had mapped the the space out and reserved the important things.

Can you give some details of the stuff that gone wrong cuz it's interesting from like an engineering perspective?

Well, the the interesting stuff is that none of these services have have a squatter protection. So I had two browser windows open. One was like a an empty account ready to be rename renamed to Cloudbot and the other one I renamed to Moldbot. So I pressed rename there, I pressed rename there and in those 5 seconds they stole the account name. Literally the 5 seconds of dragging the mouse over there and pressing rename there was too long. Wow. because there's no those systems. I mean, you would expect that they have some protection or like an automatic forwarding, but there's nothing like that. And I didn't know that they're not just good at harassment, they was really good at using scripts and tools. Yeah. So, yeah. So suddenly like the old account was um promoting new tokens and serving malware and I was like okay let's move over to GitHub and I pressed rename on GitHub and the GitHub renaming thing is slightly confusing. So I renamed my personal account and in those I guess it took me 30 seconds to realize my mistake. They sniped my account, serving malware from my account. So I was like, "Okay, let's at least do the npm stuff, but that takes like a minute to upload." And they sniped they sniped the npm package cuz I could reserve the account, but I didn't reserve the root package. So like everything that could go wrong went wrong.

Can I just ask a a curious question of in that moment you're sitting there like how shitty do you feel? That's a pretty helpless feeling, right?

Yeah. Because all I wanted was like having fun with that project and keep building on it. And yet here I am like days into researching names, picking a name I didn't like and having people that claimed they helped me, making my life miserable in every possible way. And honestly, I was that close of just deleting it. I was like, I show you the future, you build it. Yeah. I there was a big part of me that got a lot of joy out of that idea and then I thought about all the people that already contributed to it and I couldn't do it because they had plans with it and they put time in it and it just didn't feel right.

Well, I think a lot of people listening to this are deeply grateful that you persevered, but I I can tell I can tell it's a low point. That's the first time you hit a wall of this is not fun, man. I was like close to crying. He was like, "Okay, everything's fucked." Um I'm like super tired. Yeah. And now like how do you even how do you even undo that? You know, luckily and thankfully like I I have because I have a little bit of following already. Like I had friends at Twitter, I had friends at GitHub who like moved heaven and earth to like help me in is not that's not something that's easy. Like like GitHub tried to like clean up the mess and then they ran into like platform bugs because it's not happening so often that the things get renamed on that level. So, it took them a few hours. The MPM stuff was even more difficult because it's a whole different team. Um, on the Twitter side, things are not as easy as well. They took him like a day to really also like do the redirect and then I also had to like do all the renaming in the project. Then there's also uh Claw Hub, which I didn't even finish the arena in there because I I managed to get people on it and then someone just like collapsed and slept and then I woke up and I'm like I made a beta version for the new stuff and I I just I just couldn't live with the name. It's like but but you know it's just been so much drama. So I had a real struggle with me like I never want to touch that again and I really don't like the name. Um so I and I there was also this