Landmark Regulation, ICOs, Downtober & Privacy: 2025 Crypto Year in Review (Part 2)

So I think it was Kobe who said something right like the road from like 100 to 125 will be the easy road then 125 to like 250 or that that'll be the hard road and then 125 to 250 will be the easy road. So I got liquidated on gold and that was like the only position I had open. It's hilarious. Like I had of course naively had zero idea that I could get liquidated on 3x on gold. But honestly, it's really not ideal that Bitcoin can go down like that in 30 minutes. Thread Guy was hit by a big tax bill and was stressing about it on the timeline and literally the next day all of a sudden we see maybe it wasn't the next day but like within you know 48 hours we see this huge surge in Zcash. Like, am I wrong in thinking that there was a connection there or or like was was there or wasn't there?

Hi everyone, welcome to Unchained, your no hate resource for all things crypto. I'm your host Laura Shin. Thanks for joining this live stream, but just FYI that this was pre-recorded. Before we get started, a quick reminder, nothing you hear on Unchained is investment advice. This show is forformational and entertainment purposes only, and my guest and I may hold assets discussed on the show. For more disclosures, visit unchaincrypto.com. Are you a builder who needs to add onchain trading to your product? The Uniswap trading API from Uniswap Labs offers plug-and-play access to some of the deepest liquidity in crypto. It's onchain execution at an enterprise level. More liquidity, less complexity. Visit hub.uniswap.org to learn more. Mantel is launching the global hackathon 2025 to accelerate the future of realworld assets with a $150,000 prize pool backing from a $4 billion treasury and direct access to Bybit's 7 million plus users. This is the ultimate ecosystem for builders. Today's topic is 2025 year in review part two. Here to finish the discussion are Gwart, host of the Gourd Show, and Doug Cololkit, co-founder of Fogo and Ambient Finance. Welcome, Doug and Gort.

Hey, thanks for having us back.

Thank you for round two. Happy to be here.

Yeah, I'm excited to finish off the second half of the year because there was so much that happened. Um, we're going to start with the Genius Act, which was the first stablecoin, sorry, the the first crypto law that we have seen in the US and there were, you know, a few like interesting surprises in there. I think probably the main one that you know has continued to cause controversy and is also I think a sticking point in the negotiations of the crypto crypto market structure bill is that there's a prohibition on stablecoin issuers directly handing the interest off to users. Um but anyway, what are your thoughts on what happened with stable with the stable coin law?

Well, I mean, I guess I it kind of kicked off stable coin season, which is somewhat unfortunate for alt markets because there aren't really many stable coin tokens or at least like tokens to trade. So, uh yeah, I mean a great great for crypto adoption, but I think everyone kind of wanted wanted something to pump. There really wasn't much besides Circle Equity. What? XPL didn't perform well for you.

Oh, XPL. Yeah, that's actually Yeah, XPL was that was the stable coin play for a while. I mean, I I think that project could do well, but yeah, like it's unfortunate. I I mean, really, it feels like only hype. I'm sure there's at least a few others. Like privacy did well this year, but like it just feels like every token was yeah, just down only. I don't know. Bad bad year for tokens.

Um, well, I think this uh, well, I'm not so like tuned into what actually happened with the whole Genius Act thing, but I do know what you're talking about with regards to not being able to pass along guild, but I think there's a lot of workarounds with this, right? So, they're trying to I don't know what like rewards and depositing a slightly different contract and being able to pay out another or something. So it is kind of interesting how like there's does seem to be with all of the regulation and everything that's going on it definitely seems like there's some powerful people behind some of the decisions which seems sort of I don't know like you know it it doesn't seem intuitive why you know we shouldn't be able to just be directed yield if like that is in many ways part of the appeal of stable coins I think is that we can sort of like pass along that T bills or whatever it may be in the background and like you know immediately this was sort of um so yeah I think like the community banks were behind this and I think there's still a lot of work to do. It's sort of unfortunate but that that aspect was interesting.

I mean I guess maybe it's that the banks really feel like they need to pump the the bags of circle and tether and that's what it boils down to. They're like, "Those companies, they're not wealthy enough." So, um, yeah, they need to keep that interest. Um, okay. Well, it's also a good full employment act for lawyers. Like, those are always the people who make out the most in crypto.

Lawyers lawyers are going to be decimated by AI. Everyone says that the, you know, we've been selling all the picks and shovels, but it's really the lawyers who are truly the ones selling the picks and shovels this whole time, right?

Yeah. They're just trying to make as much money as they can before AI comes and wipes them out. No offense to any lawyers listening to the show. Um, but you know, I have been reading about what's going to happen to the legal profession. So anyway, okay, another big event around the same time was the pump ICO. This was so interesting cuz this happened at the same time that Let's Bonk was, you know, trending and there was so much hype and then afterward there was so much disappointment and anyway, I don't know. What did you think watching the whole thing?

It was interesting. There was like this narrative that like pump is pump is like dead and like they're going to replace it with other launch pads and it was like about for six weeks. Um, and I mean, as far as I can tell, I think like pumps kind of still dominant right now.

Yeah, but the volume has fallen off precipitous.

Yeah. Not because of competitions though, right?

No, no, you're right. Like the whole Bonk thing seem like quite fabricated. Although I am friends with quite a lot of those early bonk investors as well. So, I don't want to I don't know the details. I think they definitely put on like kind of a PR campaign, you know, in conjunction with the pump ICO in order to, you know, compete right right then and there. But the ICO was interesting. And I don't think it was I mean as kind of hilarious as this sounds like I think it was pretty decently well done in so far as they sold it directly to the public or you know there were avenues through which you could buy it publicly and and there was sort of a uniform launch price. Um and and they also launched an evaluation such that if you were a large liquid fund, right, you needed to deploy a a sizable chunk at once, this was an opportunity to do so.

Obviously it like since then it's been up and I mean it went it went up quite a bit afterwards, right? Like thread guy was all u talking about how bullish he was and I think he sold the pico top. Maybe he was the reason that Alain was kind of deranged tweeting for a little bit and I was sending Yeah, I don't know exactly what's happening now though, you know. I don't know where I haven't heard about cuz wait, didn't they sell it at um4 cents? Cuz now it's ation 9 cents. So it's less than half.

Yeah. I mean, um, I remember that when Alain went on Thread Guy, he said multiple times to Alain something like, "You have so much money. You have an ungodly amount of money or like whatever the comments were." And I remember at the like second or third comment like that, Alain didn't even like just respond. And then Fred Guy, there was like a silence and Fred Kai just gonna dignify that with a response. didn't mention that again.

I mean, it's interesting because like unlike an IPO or like right like a company raises equity, they they have no legal obligation to do anything with them. Like they could take the money and just pay themselves in and go home, right? It's just a token sale. Um but you know, as far as I can tell, I don't think they they have. Uh but you know, I people were kind of trusting them a lot.

Well, they they did they he did like you know, so the team initiated some buybacks, right? But they were sort of arbitrarily designed. So I think he was just I say he I mean they the team I suppose were you know buying in in sort of sporadic amounts and in at times it wasn't sort of this algorithmic thing that you know we have with hype and and so and also again it's not like so there's two things. One it's not so clear the value of launching a token and then making money and then buying back the token that you just issued, right? It's like a little bit of this circular thing where in the real world when there's like equity and there's you know proper revenue and then net income and then maybe you're doing share repurchases like you know Apple like all these companies do this on a regular basis but when you just kind of create something out like you know conjure or something.

They do they do out of earnings though they don't just exactly money and then go buy back exactly well and also like the immediiacy of it of it doesn't like necessarily lend itself well to like the sustainable flywheel where whereby you like raise 4 billion and then you're making I don't know not 4 billion no nothing that nothing that's even a reasonable multiple of 4 billion maybe at the peak of top but not when it was done and then you're kind of like buying back in random amounts it's not there's nothing that engenders like oh this is you know this is clearly the way to do financial engineering but I like to their defense or I don't know defense but like to to kind of be fair the the trenches have completely died right like the volume on if you look at Salana the volume is down over 90% from you know the Trump launch and there was sort of that like euthanasia roller coaster so I they tried the streaming thing I don't know how that's going they were talking about you know creators and stuff like the whole market I mean we could talk about how pump was this massive you know ICO and then a drift downwards but like the whole market's done that right so like I am somewhat sympathetic toward anybody body right now. It's like no one is really in a premier spot. Like all these launches have been down only, right?

So I don't know. And pump does or did make money at at one point, right?

Like again, is that sustainable?

I don't know. I think they still do like a million a day.

They do. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know who's still trading like pump but like a lot of people.

I know, right? Well, like all the like now if if a token hits I mean a token hits like a you know a million or $5 million market cap now it's like that's the runner of the day whereas like you know six months ago we had 6 to 12 months ago we had coins you know running to 50und million regularly and you know at times billion you know what I mean so it's clear that the the trenches in aggregate have been you know like it's been a prescribed fire almost.

Yeah, there was this funny tweet after the ICO where someone was like, "Wait, so we gave you money for the ICO, but then now you're using the money to buy the It was like this whole like circular thing." Um, and yeah, it is it is basically a thing that they do on Trady, but it's just funny. It's like literally all we're doing is like moving money from one, you know, entity to another and then back and forth and back and forth. Um, so, okay. Well, the next big thing was that um Tempo caused quite a stir when it chose to become its own L1. Um and I should I shouldn't say it's like an entity, it's an itself. It's like Stripe chose to make Tempo and L1. And obviously this became um I think it caused a a bit of consternation I would say in Ethereum world. Um but what were your thoughts on on that?

I mean, it's not I mean, it's not clear. Like, obviously, Paradigm is all in on Tempo. Uh, it's not clear to me how much Stripe is all in on Tempo or this is just one of many uh many bets Stripe is taking. Like if if you talk to kind of random people at Stripe, some of them haven't even heard like not the people work on Temple or Blockchain, but like you know random employees haven't really heard of Temple or at least haven't like right after the announcement. So like I don't I don't know if this is like Stripe's big bet in crypto or is just Stripe is a giant company and Paradigm kind of showed up and was like, "Oh, all right. You sure? We'll we'll Oh, interesting. I was like Matt has I mean Matt's on the board of Stripe."

Oh, is okay. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, he has. I mean, there's a there's a long long time connection there. So, I think that's I mean obviously Stripe is involved in it. I just don't know if like this is like Stripe is I mean they're doing stable coin payments on Solana and Ethereum too, right? Like my understanding.

Well, it's like okay, I'll be honest. It's like quite it's not dissimilar from people saying uh Tether and Plasma like like Plasma is Tether's chain. It's like Tether yeetss money at everything. I mean, Tether owns Rumble. Tether has invested in a gajillion random AI startups. Like, it's quite similar. You know, you find a big name and then you sort of in a line in some capacity.

I mean, I think the the Stripe totempo connection seems more um I don't want to say legitimate. Let me think of another word. It seems more truly, you know, like tonical. Like I I just did the like if Tempo doesn't take off like a strip going to put like all their resources into making work and they're going to be like, "Oh, fine. We're doing like payments on Salana or Ethereum or wherever." Like it's fine. Like Tempo is.

Oh, interesting. Wait. Okay. You like you cuz I mean they're trying to make it this sort of consortium thing like it's basically, you know, uh you I'm sure you saw the memes. It's basically like Libra or DM all over again. Um, but hopefully this time it will actually happen. But yeah, so I I feel like yeah, even if they aren't in control of it at a certain point, like it would be that they they get it afloat and then they step away. Not that they like abandon it and it goes nowhere. That's I mean, who knows what will happen.

Yeah. But I mean, like there's there's just stuff with like how much their fingers on the scale, right? by you know how much how much are they going to push like end users to go through tether versus if they're supporting you know alter channels outside or not tether uh tempo tempo versus uh you know I'm saying okay it's just like one neutral option okay yeah by the way you guys like tether does have so much money that they offer to buy this soccer club in yeahian yeah which yeah I mean good for.

Um, all right. Speaking of stable coins, the next big controversy in crypto was the USDH competition, the hyperlquid stable coin. Um, yeah, a competition, which wasn't a competition. It was I don't know. I So, I'm I'm going to say something controversial, but I think most of us would probably agree on the deal that it was pre-ordained who it would be. Um hopefully nobody will come attack me for saying that but um yeah what what did you think watching that go down?

I mean it's it's kind of like the old meme of the the DAO governance forum where it's you know what color Ferrari does the founder get and yeah vote red and then the founder says no yellow and then everyone votes yellow. I mean I think a lot of things onchain governance are are probably yeah but I think it's fine. I mean they it it's probably necessary, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And also I I don't know this for a fact, but I speculate that it was in some capacity pre-ordained. I mean you like I don't even think there's anything nefarious in saying pre-ordained like they probably were just in close talks with Hyperlid and and team. But my thing is like if it was pre-ordained then why not just say hey we're going to launch our own stable coin. We're going to partner with you know native markets blah blah blah. like why wouldn't you know?

Well, I think they Okay, so I don't know. Again, this is just conversations I've had, which is that I think that was the initial idea and then once it was, you know, I think it was sort of understood this was going to become the native stable coin and then it got like everybody wanted to be involved and so you got all these teams vying, all these teams submitting proposals and none of that was expected. Like I don't think there was any uh assumption there was going to be a tremendous amount of hype to begin with. So it was going to look more similar. they put an announcement in the discord saying like there's we're going to have this little competition. So I think there's also maybe regulatory stuff around that like you can't if if the team like just picks one right then it's potentially right too much control over the network versus if you have an open because also right like the hype hype itself I don't think voted right like the other validators voted so you have to kind of make it you know from a regulatory perspective there's a risk if it doesn't look like a decentralized and open.

So it was DeFi theater basically.

Well, I mean I like like again the lawyers lawyers make a lot of money and they tell you things and then like at the end of the day like who knows what the actual rules are. I don't think anybody knows but sound authoritative when they tell you stuff. The largest hype holders voted for this to pass, right? Like that that's how it works. It's like the validators I know the foundation um abstained, right? But they convinced hyper guys whatever they're like all the big validators they convinced it is what it is. I mean yeah I suppose capitalism is not always fair but like I don't think it's is the controvers I think what happened was it really blew up because a lot of VCs but but I wouldn't call capitalism. I wouldn't call it like it's crony capitalism. There's a lot of this.

Okay. But real capitalism is competition whereas that was like a fake competition and then instead it was.

Yeah. more communist, but they won. They won with the the most pe the people with the most money ultimately decided the vote and that's capitalism. Like I think this is just I I really think what happened was that there was a lot of VCs who and not just VCs but founders, legitimate founders like Guy right from Athena who they all wanted to be involved like they're like oh okay we'll submit a proposal as well. And so it got a lot of hype and it then it appeared as though this had been pre-ordained after there was a lot of really good proposals that came in. But at the end of the day, the people with the most money voted for it. Like I don't I understand your point. You feel like it actually was decentralized. But nothing is decentralized. I mean come on.

Who cares? Like all of this stuff is about American democracy. Are you saying some of that's pre-ordained before?

Yeah, but I'm just saying like it doesn't it doesn't matter like It's not even open source. It's a bi like the validators are sent a binary, right, that they run. And when they hard fork, they're just sent a new binary, right? And they just start like it's this is not I think we're overthinking this. There's a lot of like steps along the way prior to like, oh no, the you know, yield bearing stable coin is, you know, pre-ordained or chosen. It's like there's a lot of things prior to that where if you're engaged in this network, you realize that there are there is some top down control and Jeff likely ships whatever code he wants. Alex the validators and people seem to like the product so who cares, right?

So it is decentralization theater.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Good. I for some reason I thought you were arguing that it wasn't and I was like wait but wait what are you saying? Okay. It is but it works. It's good enough.

Yeah. I mean if so okay if Hester Purses um what's it called? the safe harbor thing goes through then yeah I think they're within like the time frame of when it could be centralized so you know no big deal and anyway not like this SEC is going to go after them um okay okay next next big um news was the acquisition of Echo by Coinbase um along with the revival of Up Only which hasn't happened but um yeah the purchase of Up Only for 25 or the purchase of a season of Up Only for $25 million And then now um you know Kopi is doing customer support for Coinbase which is what you do. You acquire somebody for $400 million so that they can do customer support for you. I feel like that that is like clearly the best aqua hire um of the year. But yeah, what were your thoughts?

Um, I thought that I think Kobe from what so I don't you know I don't know him like that well but I think what he was he was really trying to solve a problem in earnest and I think that I mean uh Fogo used um this is a good opportunity to show Doug. Fogo used Echo, right? So we did we did echo about a year. Yeah. Like I think he was trying to solve a real problem that a lot of us had screeched about for a long time and yeah it was like quite a large number and wait by that about like a a good platform for ICOs. Is that what you mean?

Yeah. right? Like like you early investors are like I ideally like your early investors should be your users like very few like I mean I guess there are some VCs that will bring like liquidity or whatever depending on the project but like all things being equal if you're going to sell you know x amount of tokens to fund some project development at a certain price. You'd rather have them be users, right? like people who invest are more likely to click on the network versus know if you go to whatever multicoin um or whoever like they're not going to go do a bunch of chain activity.

No I mean I I v I will say that I don't necessarily share the view that investors must be users. It's in the context of crypto. I think it's what we've done and so we sort of take that as at face value. I don't there's some nuance to whether or not I agree with that but I take Doug's point but I think more I guess my point was more just right for the past I don't know five years you could probably extend it further than that we see these tokens launching at like extremely high FTVs and most of the charts get murdered and it doesn't seem that like this premise of retail having early access to these opportunities was really playing out because VCs were scooping up these rounds very very And often times they were getting bit up in private subsequently, right? So it wasn't even just like one round, it was two or three rounds and then all of a sudden you're at one two 5 billion opening price, right? And so the premise obviously being that retail could just get earlier access maybe with some conditions. Maybe you need to be a credit investor, maybe there's lockups, but you know, more replicate what some VCs have been getting for, you know, some period of time now.

So, like I think he was like I saw a lot of Kobe like when he would come on Twitter and respond to people like I had conversations with him and mostly what I saw was I think he also agreed that this was a real problem and so he was trying to solve it. Um, so it's a hard thing to solve, right? I think at a at a practical level, we've had angel list in Trafy for quite some time that it works differently with with exits and tokens and dynamics, but I think what I think it was a passion project because I think from what I can tell, again, I don't know him that well, but what I see him say, I think he genuinely believes in, you know, the idea that he kind of puts forth with with Ekko.

Yeah, it was definitely from I mean his perspective, right? Like Kobe probably has better deal flow than any angel investor in crypto. So, uh you know, it's very much a Robin Hood type story of uh the guy who has great deal flow is opening it up. So, yeah. And now that's why he does customer support. That's like his other wife. That's a good Coinbase could use that. That's certainly uh I mean I I will be honest like and I think people realize this but I'll just say it directly like what what does it say about Coinbase that there have been problems that have not that we've all dealt with for years and it's taken one guy who was acquired for an entirely separate reason right like his company had nothing to do with fixing locked accounts and he's like on he's now being able to rectify this stuff like I don't know that's a little bit that doesn't imbue tremendous confidence in like Coinbase or my perspective that it takes this guy to come in here and like he's fixing the problems that we've screeched about for years, right?

My I I gave up. I'll be honest. I only use Kraken now. Like when I'm on boarding on like I I don't I my account got locked. I have one of these back and forth. You ever were able to get it back?

Right. It was I have screenshots of how hilarious the conversations were. Why don't you message Kobe? I I I did actually. ironic. It's funny you say that. I talked to him last week. He was trying to help me because So, here's a good example. I had a friend who's not not really crypto native, but like I owed him some money and I said, "I have some stable coins on Salana. Um, can you send me your Salana address?" And he sent me um a Salana address. Unbeknownst to him, he didn't realize it was his Coinbase address. And I had USDT, so I didn't think anything of it. and I sent him USDT on Salana to his Coinbase address. And of course, they don't support USDT. By the way, this is a completely like background infrastructure thing that is 100% solvable. Like those coins just sit there. Um, and I don't I mean, Doug is more technical than I am. I don't think it's it's not that hard to fix.

No, it's not that hard. They have the keys, right? Like it's not like they're lost or anything like they're the address. But there is a recovery tool now apparently in in Kobe's we're in the process of trying the first time I tried it hasn't worked yet but this kid now like we're friends he's going to send me the money back because I ended up double paying him right because I was like oh dude I'm sorry like but when that when we can unlock that send that money back to me right and so now we're in that process but like that's a good example of like come on you know but I am wondering why somebody has USDT on Salana that's a I have a bunch of different stable coin like probably like some incentives crap on like some stable stable coin enjoyer just.

Yeah. Why is that so weird? Like is you would think I'd have Do people really People don't really use USDT that much on Salana. So that's why like it was on Ethereum. Yeah, I can see that. But yeah.

Yeah. Well, anyway, it is Yeah, that is ridiculous. They can't do that. It's annoying. Like Tether, a major stable coin.

Yeah, I mean like maybe the reason that their regular customer service can't do it is because they are so busy um sending our PII to hackers. Have you, Laura, have you ever dealt with Coinbased customer support? Like, have you ever You don't You You You You like completely stay out of crypto, don't you?

Um, no. I don't. Okay. I um It's Yeah. The I've been in it and out of it at different periods, but I'm now back in it, but like I have somebody manage that for me. Okay. So, I am not like physically in control of my crypto. just, you know, in CA for whoever's listening who maybe is like mad about something that I wrote about them or said about them or whatever, just so you know. Um, okay. Okay. Uh, before the adbreak, let's just discuss briefly the Bitcoin all-time high of $126,000, which is far below what I think a lot of other people kind of thought it was going to end up at the cycle. Um, but yeah, what's your what what are your comments on this? And and by the way, this is just a few days before the 1010 liquidations.

I mean, basically, wasn't it I think it was Kobe. I think it was Kobe. So, we were just saying good things about him. So, I think it was Kobe who said something, right? Like the road from like 0 to 125 will be the easy road, then 125 to like 250 or that will be the hard road and then 125 to 250 will be the easy road. So, uh I know. But but wait like the other the other funny thing is this happened in October and it was like 60s in apparently is when we reached the alltime high and then Yeah. then it was I guess but I don't know. Yeah. Well well okay. Yeah. But so what do you think about that alltime high and then then we can discuss 1010.

Uh it's exciting. I think obviously everybody thought that we were just going to keep running for eternity and the market tends to punish those who believe there's ever an easy road I suppose. Um yeah, I I don't have much more than that. I mean I was s I mean I listened I think Udy came on was it your podcast?

Yeah. And Yeah. So I talk with Udy a lot, right? and we were both like 400k by the end of the well he was saying 400k by the end of the year and I was like dude oh I love it like I'm I'm in I would love for that to be the case right and obviously um yeah I think what like what most people who are smarter than I am on macro say is probably correct right we front ran like Trump coming in we front ran a lot of the trady liquidity and we were just you know sort of earlier the stock market gold everything is at alltime highs as right now and we kind of already ran that up. So, I mean I suppose it was exciting we had to hit that and it's less exciting now that it's you know 30% down but um yeah I don't have much more than that. All right so in a moment we're going to talk about the 1010 liquidations and the rest of the year but first a quick word from the sponsors make the show possible.

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So, um, yeah, we left on the high note of the Bitcoin all-time high. Although I don't know if that was a high note because it was far below what a lot of people thought the whole time I was going to be. But anyway, we then come to the 1010 liquidations which yeah that was um that was like you said Gore I'm not really in crypto but like that was terrible even just for me like watching sitting on my computer on you know Friday afternoon and um yeah huge shocker. Um, interestingly, I feel like it's the first time that I've ever heard of Binance like really something up, you know, not and that wasn't like regulatory like this was like an actual failure on the part of um the trading apparatus. Uh, and then we also have that element of the whale who made a ton of money. Um, and it's seemingly, you know, somebody who's connected to the White House. So those elements together