Is Crypto Focusing on the Wrong Regulatory Fight? DEX in the City

There are so many issues we still have to deal with and we're somehow giving too much weight to clarity and thereby too much weight to this interest rate conversation in my opinion.

AI effectively have to roll up to either a person or non-natural person. And so AI has to roll up from a KYC perspective and you have to be responsible for your Agents in some sense and from a monetary perspective you're ultimately liable for those pieces.

So I think it's almost like code, right? If code goes rogue, you're responsible for I liked Edward's point.

You make a very important point where if there is a centralized party involved in utilizing AI in any form, then there needs to be accountability from the centralized party perspective.

Hi all and welcome to DEX in the City where the wallets are cold and the takes are hot.

First we have Jesse, web 3 prosecutor turned web 3 protector at Ribbit Capital. Hi team.

And I'm your host Katherine or KK fluent in Tradfi and conversant in deep tech over at Starkware. V is out this week. So we are so pleased to have a special guest and fellow Chicago in here today. Edward Woodford, CEO of Zero Hash.

We cannot wait to hear from Edward. But before we get going, remember we're lawyers, but we're not your lawyers. So nothing you hear on Dex in the City is legal or financial advice and it does not create an attorney client relationship. For the fine print, check unchained crypto.com.

We can't wait to dig in with you, but before we get started, we're going to hear from our sponsors that make this show possible.

The Energy Network is an intelligent decentralized grid that coordinates smart devices to balance supply and demand. Energy Dollar is the native token of the network from one of Europe's fastest growing energy startups. Followenergy on X to find out more.

If crypto taxes feel overwhelming, you're not alone. That's why Cryptotaxgirl, a team that's been helping crypto investors since 2017, is offering $100 off on one-on-one cryptot tax help. To get $100 off your cryptotax services, go to cryptotaxgirl.com/unchained. Again, that's cryptotaxgirl.com/unchained.

Welcome back, and we are so excited to dig in. We have some good stuff today. An update on the big White House meeting yesterday and an overview of where Clarity, the crypto market structure bill, stands.

A really meaty conversation and on AI and it's absolutely fabulous because we really have a CEO and builder and an exceptionally smart and nice one here with us for his smart takes.

So Edward, he is a real slacker, a serial entrepreneur and serial success story with an MBA from MIT. But seriously, Edward is brilliant and an allound charismatic and good guy and we are lucky to have him in Chicago and building in this space.

So Edward, before we get going, tell us a little bit more about Zero Hash.

Thank you for that exceptionally kind introduction and I the only fact check I'll have is I got a master from MIT not an MBA but everything else hopefully is true because that was exceptionally kind. So there we go. I won't I won't question anything else you said.

But yeah, just really quick, Zero Hash, we provide infrastructure across both crypto, stable coins and tokenization and work with some of the largest financial services companies such as Morgan Stanley, Stripe, Black Rock across a whole host of products that we offer to clients.

So we just view this space as a technology play and we want to enable people to build on this technology stack.

Amazing. And you know, Zero Hash is really occupying this kind of crypto trady hybrid sweet spot right now, which obviously we're seeing huge growth. And a very important part of that conversation is where the environment looks like long-term in terms of legislation.

So a very very big item in the news this week was yesterday. The White House convened a meeting with crypto and banking executives to talk about advancing the Clarity Act, the crypto market structure bill that we are all hoping for.

So, very quick background on that. You know, both Jesse and I have spoken to individuals who were at that meeting. Really interestingly, they specifically invited the policy people to this meeting. They said, "Don't bring your CEOs. We want everybody to really get their hands dirty to talk through what is preventing kind of further progress on the clarity back clarity bill."

A big piece of that being kind of this question of yield linked to stable coins that could fundamentally undermine, you know, some of the bank's value proposition. A couple takes I heard that were interesting is it's I obviously heard from the crypto folks that they were open and willing to compromise whereas the banking folks were not.

I'll take that with a grain of salt. I also heard that the there was a lot of discussion as to how to make progress in terms of horse trading. You know, what could the banks compromise versus what could crypto compromise, how we could bring in theoretical movement on all aspects, not just specific provisions of clarity.

And then interestingly, this is a time mandate. Whereas the White House made it very clear, we expect everyone to make progress in the next two to three weeks. So very near term, you know, get this done, get this moving. And that really aligns with everything I've heard where this needs to start moving by the end of February or we're going to see it, you know, basic basically dead in the water, which would be very bearish for crypto in the long term in my opinion.

Edward, give us your take. How are you feeling about clarity? How is Zero Hash feeling about clarity? What is your sense? Do you think that this is going to get done?

Yeah, I mean look, I think you guys obviously have some unique takes. I think our view has always been around just the surface area that the bill tries to cover. And obviously different bills have been written market structure and clarity.

I think for us, you know, we're supportive of trying to really push the issues that matter most. And I think that is an area that I hope that we try and narrow some of the some of the pieces of conversation. Right. So, you know, places where I think there's fundamental broad agreement versus just trying to solve absolutely every single piece where there actually is a divergence of opinions not only within the crypto landscape but obviously you start to bring in other stakeholders.

For me I think you know if I could wave a magic wand it would largely be around updating the definition of security right that really was what was the fundamental issue of over the last few years was effectively an ability to enforce effectively regulation by enforcement so being able to reel that back and then I think there's kind of maybe more mundane issues right around for example accounting and tax so this concept around having to file a 1099 if you sell $10,000 of stable coins.

How do we expect stable coins to be a real application if you have to file a 1099 and that drives up costs and other pieces?

So, I think it's about narrowing the number of issues and really trying to push those forward. That is where I think you will get real traction across you know different stakeholders, different pieces. So that's kind of you know kind of our view is really pushing forward the issues the way there is real impact and you know to drive it forward.

I think what people don't really appreciate fully about the bill is even if the bill gots passed there's still going to be a pretty heavy rule making period for a couple of years. So this perception of what does it do from clarity you know it's not going to be an overnight thing. There is still going to be a lot of rule making that has to be done which we've seen obviously with genius. genius of past and there's rule making that has to be defined and a lot of work that has to be done into that.

So look that's kind of our take and kind of I think what are the real fundamental issues we're trying to solve for almost taking a step back to take a bigger step forward.

You make such a good point, Edward, because while this interest debate is a big one, it definitely has sucked the air out of the room from many of the other issues, and it's one that we should be focused on, but instead it has distracted from a lot of the other topics and issues that we can potentially narrow on.

And therefore it's sort of created these coalitions of crypto verse banking or crypto versus tradi where each side is digging their heels in with this large principle of crypto saying this is you know allowing for interest is the only way to let the US thrive as the crypto capital of the world while banking is saying well if you allow it then banking is going to die.

So with those like stakes in the ground, it's very hard for either side to compromise.

And it's so interesting, KK, your explanation because I generally also heard the meeting was positive and having policy people there was a really big positive especially with a lot of the news coming out of Davos about Jamie Diamond and Brian Armstrong getting into it.

Like having the people that really know how to engage on policy issues is important, but when you talk to people on the banking side, they're saying that they're the ones that are compromising versus crypto. Crypto is obviously saying the other side of it. And it's hard to ever stand up for the bank. So, I'm not I'm not here doing that.

But the fact that the narratives are so separate, it's they're living in two different echo chambers.

Is it bad that I I kind of love Jaime Diamond? I mean, the fact that he will tell other CEOs, regulators, government officials, you are full of quote unquote. I mean, you got to give him credit. That's a privilege. We all want to say that to people sometimes. And he's highly intelligent.

Like, I don't mean to lionize bankers. There's also people in crypto that we need to lionize, but and a lot of people criticize him for for being so anti-crypto for so long, but to JP Morgan's credit, they've obviously pivoted. They have a very large team working on crypto issues.

But separate apart from that one fun fact I I also liked your point Edward about the 1099s. And as the resident history nerd here, I always like to remind people that 1099s were first introduced a as part of the War Revenue Act of 1917, which required certain payments of at least $800 to the IRS.

Okay. $800 in 1917 was roughly about $20,000 now. Yet still, we are continually faced with scenarios, particularly in crypto, where you have these tiny amounts of money that need to be reported if there's transfers. And that obviously creates a very ownorous customer experience. So that's just one of I think many issues where crypto specifically feels unfairly targeted. visa visa v trady rails.

Edward, go ahead.

No, I think obviously everyone hyperfocuses on basically regulation by by by by by laws, right? But I think that if we look at, you know, I think it's important to take a step back because I think we've we we all lose sight of where we were, you know, 18 to 24 months ago.

I mean I I I basically say look policy is one element. But if you look at actually some of the big progress that has been made and what I think really needs to be codified and protected against in the bill is to prevent what we saw which was regulation by enforcement.

Regulation by implication which is effectively agencies implying that if you do something that is completely illegal you will have issue an issue. And you know Coinbase has done a good job with foying some of those letters. And then there's regulation by rulemaking which was effectively SAR 121 which was effectively trying to dissuade uh publicly traded and bank companies from offering crypto because of the the accounting treatment.

So I always like to take a step back and say look what what were the challenges that we faced how can we codify against those and you know that's why I go back to those core principles which is you can effectively stop regulation by enforcement if you clarify what is a security and what's not.

The other piece is I think you you should also think about how legislatively you should prevent them but it's not necessarily a purely crypto issue right around regulation by agencies effectively trying to bypass Congress. So I think really taking a step back and saying what do we actually experience? What are we trying to prevent?

I think is actually an important piece because right now I think the perception of you know the we're anchoring to where we are today versus we're anchoring to where we were 18 months ago and really trying to prevent going back to that place I think is what we try to optimize for.

I I love that and it's spot on. And you know, one of the things that I really wanted to ask you before, I know Jesse wants to ask you some Zero Hash specific questions about where you are. You occupy, as I referenced before, a really interesting position like very much working with a lot of traditional financial services players and also working with crypto.

I tend to think and I think a lot of people share this opinion that clarity and legislation is the final unlock that would effectively open up another wave of TRD engagement with onchain with with crypto more generally because there is there is still seemingly a contingent of the more conservative players more riskaverse players that are afraid to wholly engage without that clear legislative roadmap. that do you share that opinion? How do you feel about that like kind of last unlock? Is it clarity?

Look, I I think again I think I I prefer to live in a world of nuance and I think we just look at just look at the facts, right? If you're a bank and you want to look just go through each of our product lines. If you're a bank and you want to offer crypto trading, you certainly can with clarity today in the sense of you can offer Bitcoin, E Salana as Morgan Stanley is doing with Zerash, right?

Then the second big bucket is stable coins. There's now clarity around the issuance of stable coins. Yes, there's an argument around interest, but if you actually look at, you know, I think we have to be careful what we ask for as well because you know, the bill was passed and then rulem is kind of, you know, the rule the rulem is kind of trying to interpret language that is intentionally vague.

I think we want to be very careful what we ask for. If we if the commonality this is why I go back to my point, if we go back to if we try to find commonality through vagueness, that is going to lead to what we've seen with um the interest rate discussion probably 5 to 10x, right? if the surface area is so broad. And that's going to leave it to rule making, right? And people have to be careful about, you know, post midterms. What does that look like from a rule making perspective?

That's why I'm like, hey, let's narrow the the the the conversation. I think let's pull out I think the compromise should be let's pull out certain pieces of the bill. Because I think that that that will actually allow us to take bigger steps forward.

And on tokenization, you know, every agency has come out repeatedly, whether it be banks looking to tokenized deposits or you know, NASDAQ and and others making announcements around tokenized stocks. The clarity is there, right? So I think I I think there are elements that are incredibly important. I've kind of flagged what I think is important.

But this promise of like this binary contract we are already seeing because of the pull back from regulation by enforcement, regulation by amplification, regulation by rulemaking. We've seen huge adoption. Without those pieces, you wouldn't have seen a G Sid bank enter the space with zero hash on the on on the crypto side. You won't have seen large institutions adopt stable coins and you won't have seen large institutions do to tokenization.

So I think there's a lot that has been achieved in a non-legislative function, which I think is important to remember.

This is why Edward and I are friends because we both love nuance, I think. And so I really appreciate that perspective. I'm going to have to disagree with you, KK. I don't think this is a final unlock. I think it could be a big unlock.

But crypto has that problem of saying once Gary Gendler's gone, everything's going to be better. Once a pro crypto president gets elected, everything's going to be great. Look at Bitcoin prices today. Once this happens, everything's going to be great.

There are so many issues we still have to deal with and we're somehow giving too much weight to clarity and thereby too much weight to this interest rate conversation in my opinion. Although it's very important, there are so many other things happening. Crypto's reputation is in the dumps. We have elicit finance like incredibly high right now on rails that not enough is being done with.

If you look at that language within the bill, there's a lot of work that needs to be improved there. And so to me, I agree with Edward in that maybe minimizing what we're dealing with and taking like bites of the elephant in smaller bites or whatever the saying is is the solution here because you're never going to be able to do such a large market structure bill that is specific enough that we won't have to rely on rulemaking or enforcement because there are a lot of legal frameworks that rely on very broadly vague written statement. uh legislation that was written a long time ago that is enforced through agencies and through prosecutions and through investigations.

So, we don't want that because as Edward pointed out and we've all recognized that's what got us into a lot of problematic positions before and hasn't been great for the industry. So, yeah, let's just like focus in and stop trying to do everything at once potentially.

And I'm just going to say a CEO that understands nuance is actually a general counsel's dream. So, good for you, Edward. Oh my goodness.

Well, very interesting takes on clarity. I'm gonna hand it over to Jesse because I know she has uh some other questions about some news that Zero Hash has been dealing with.

Okay. Well, everyone's talking about the market structure bill, which obviously is hot right now with the meeting yesterday, but I also want to hear about the Mastercard developments that happened with Zero Hash. So, rumor mill buzzing, you walked away from a very large acquisition. We don't want to fully trust crypto Twitter. We'd love to hear your perspective on what happened and how you got to the decision to stay independent. And what your team thought about it. Just whatever details you could give us.

Edward didn't want to retire to an island just yet, right? Like that's it.

Yeah. Look, I think it's it's it's a weird position with just Ruda Mills that you have to eventually come out to deny something that you you didn't confirm. But yeah, the space loves loves the story. Let's let's put it that way.

So look, I think regardless of who the discussions about who the acquirer may or may be, our view is that we are at this incredible inflection point. We believe that we can achieve more in the next two years than we have in the last eight. So our metric for what we want to do do in those two years is can we move at a greater velocity can we make this business significantly bigger and is this the best outcome for our team and I think maybe starting with outcome for the team you know in terms of where we are in terms of the three business lines crypto trade effectively um we're seeing a massive convergence of crypto companies and financial services companies and we believe that we are the default winner in bringing tradition traditional banks, financial service companies into crypto.

And my view is is that for example, when you look at Robin Hood's financials, Coinbase's financials, they're going to look very, very similar in two to three years. And I think that's broader and there's a lot of competitive threats to traditional players with, for example, Coinbase launching their wealth product. So, we believe that we can bring in, you know, companies that total trillions of dollars of market cap into crypto on that side.

When you look at stable coins and you see the velocity of growth in our business, we're we're exceptionally excited across the use cases, actual use cases, right? Not hypotheticals, whether it be around gusto payouts or account funding into groups like Interactive Brokers. Then on the tokenization side, you effectively went from something that was zero two years ago to something that now has grown into a multi multi-billion million dollar revenue line item for us and we're still very very early.

So, our decision came down to speed and outcome. And you know, it's always flattering to have acquisition offers. This isn't the first. It won't be the last. But we just truly believe that where we are, we can do more as an independent business and can lead to a better outcome.

And look, frankly, we actually care about the technology. We care about the distribution. And that's why for us being able to build and actually have impact is is the most important. And I think that then ties back into value, right? If you truly care about what you're building, it ties back into value. And you can try and get that that flywheel.

So, yeah, look, it was it was a great, you know, net net great outcome for for us. And, you know, we're excited to continue to scale our partnership with Mastercard, some of the areas that we've announced publicly. But yeah, look, we're we're we're really excited by the next next next next phase of next phase of growth, which for us is no different. But you know, it's a going going through those processes is always some was always interesting. You always learn something you learn something about yourself, you learn something about your team, you learn something about what you want to do.

And so netnet, I always try to take positives out of these situations. And you know the be the best outcome for me was we made the decision and I'm super excited to come to work and don't even think about like it's not about what if right like if you built you don't you can't be an entrepreneur if you're always thinking what if I you know we we should have taken the $und00 million offer that we got offered right like it just for us it's just about like what we're doing next and you know if you want to really look after you know there are fundamental realities you want to make sure you look after your team there's lots of outcomes now with secondaries and all sorts of options so I really do think there's lots of options if you want to give your team a little bit of liquidity. You can do in the right way. But for me it was all about velocity.

Now, do you have to only use a master card when you go out to dinner? Emperor Master Card. We're, you know, it's it learning about networks. I mean, I I think what's really really interesting is you go and you spend more time with banks and networks. It's really interesting, right, about where you actually really start to unpack these businesses and these perceptions about who actually is at threat from stable coins and crypto technology.

I think that's always an interesting one. And I actually think the networks are incredibly well positioned because really the way I view stable coins is that they are an alternative payment method. They need to coexist with other payment methods. And so effectively what are networks? They these networks are effectively network of networks that create interoperability and if you look at the stable coin challenge it's about interoperability crosschain and cross assets. So actually the networks are perfectly positioned because that's what they do all day is ab you know effectively creating global interoperability across payment networks.

So it is really interesting spending time I've been fortunate to spend time you know the visa exec team Mastercard exec team bank exec teams about how they view um you know obviously there's a defensive element but actually what I've realized is a lot of these people actually view this as a really good offensive mechanism if you look at visa for example they had their earnings call their CEO talked about how stable coins has enabled them to effectively have global waiver programs around card issuance you know there's a lot of innovation that these groups can have. There are obviously competitive threats and that's obviously what people like like to focus on, but actually if you spend time with these people, they make decisions partly based on competitive threats, but actually what I've realized is they actually see huge growth opportunities.

I love that sort of reframing of who the competitors are and who aren't. And we sort of need to get you in front of some bankers to I'm sure you know plenty of them to explain how stable coins might not sort of threaten their space.

The question I have is because you guys are really sitting in the sweet spot. You know, crypto sentiment's down, prices are down, but stable coin use is just really amazing and crazy and like the kind of thing that I think crypto and blockchain have been waiting for. And you know, we talk a lot about clarity and forget that like genius is still being worked out. Like we don't exactly know what that's going to look like. We don't really have any genius compliant stable coins yet because we haven't gotten to that part because it isn't in implemented until 2027. I keep reminding people I'm like the law it's not here yet, guys. So, but they're genius compliance quote unquote.

But I do I do would love to hear from you like how has your business changed since that rolled out? Have you begun to see is it just more institutions coming in? Have you thought of new use cases because of this bill? Are there things that you think could be built on top of it? How much engagement are you doing? All those sort of questions around the actual bill that we have passed.

Yeah. So, I think when people look at genius, I think definitely there was a sentiment shift that that was incredibly helpful and can't be um you know, I I don't think can be understated, right? It definitely was a validity of of of this of of of stable coins as an as an industry. But if you get down to the nitty-gritty of what I think the two big outcomes are, one is um I think you're going to see massive fragmentation on stable coins.

And what I mean by that is you're going to see many more issuers of stable coins. Um, so that's one thing. And the positive, massive positive, you're going to see massive distribution. And so for me, stable coins is a network effect and so you need distribution. And so we we coined this term stable coin enabled accounts and we released the stable coin momentum report earlier this month or you know January um talking about why this is such a critical metric, right? The ability to access stable coins seamlessly and easily.

And so my view on banks and how they enter the space postgenius is that they effectively use this as an APM in and out. um the fragmentation piece right with many many more issuers um I think actually increases the value of businesses like ours that effectively abstract away the complexity I don't think you'll really understand what is the complexity with stable coins USDC is now natively issued on 30 chains then you have wrap tokens and then you have this new construct of like USDC X that creates a lot of fragmentation let alone when you think about you know let's say there's going to be five or six large stable coins that also get issued so the importance of interoper ility and where we sit in the stack I think is only increased.

So look genius massive benefit for the space. Um, but in terms of market dynamics I think it's going to um increase fragmentation um increase user distribution and that's kind of how we think philosophically about our business. It hasn't changed that much because that's kind of how we thought about it but I think it's an acceleration of both those thesis.

Amazing. um very astute take on all of this because one of the other things I like about Edward is he's not wholly brimming over with optimism but also not you're a very pragmatic person with respect to this and zero c zero hash is in a really good place too because unlike much of crypto you actually are offering a solution to a problem that that exists so the whole ecosystem could do a little bit better job of finding those areas um fleshing out our own use cases they do exist we just need to refine behind them and move forward.

So, we're gonna we're going to go to break in a couple minutes, but really briefly before we go to break, I wanted to spotlight something very important. Edward has written and published a book, which is he's at a launch party. I was devastated. I I was not able to go to the launch party. I was very upset. I have never been to a book launch party despite actually, you know, contributing to a number of books. Uh, but this one was probably gonna be the most fun launch party ever because it's actually a children's book. It's called Stable Coins for Babies. And we're going to link uh, you know, u link to purchase in the show notes. This is really fabulous. I remember talking to you, Edward, months ago and hearing that you were doing this and being very excited because I had read one crypto book to my own children, a board book called Blockchain for Babies, and I was bemoning the fact that there isn't more scholarship. Like, there aren't more crypto children's books. Yet, I can read them a Baronstein Bears book that's called Dollars and Cents that's all about pennies and balancing your checkbooks. And I'm like, I'm not going to read this nonsense to them. just gonna confuse them as they get older.

Yeah, exactly. That book obviously needs to be taken out of print or updated immediately. So, really quick, uh Edward, tell us more about this book and we'll highlight crypto good news link to that and then we'll go to break.

Yeah, look, I think it's a it's a stretch to call it scholarship. I think I think uh you know I think the total number of words is maybe 150 words but look I think um I think it's a it was a really fun exercise to do and it's uh I got enjoyment out of just doing it myself uh for my daughter. But I think it is I I think it's a great it's a it's been a great gift. I mean the excitement that I've seen I mean people I don't know have sent messages. I mean it's it's been really fun and frankly it's all for a good cause. all all profits go um to a literary um charity. So it's you know actually you mentioned Blockchain for Babies actually Jesse got that book for me when I had my daughter and so I looked at it I was like this is good but I think I could do better. And so uh wrappy present was your inspiration great it was a great present but I I I just thought I could make it a little bit more fun and edgy.

So, um yeah, the the the story is around steady Eddie stable coins and how it kind of differs to um fiat. Um, and you know, that sounds pretty dry, but uh it seems to be that uh the enjoyment has been there from kids, but you know, the majority of readers, I think, can't uh can't articulate that they didn't like the book. So, that's also a good audience as well to sometimes target. So yeah, it's been a great it's been great fun and um yeah, the uptake has been um has been um has been great to see.

I have the book. It's excellent. I've read it to my kids. They give it two thumbs up. Uh I do have to say hilariously, my son's second grade class is in the middle of their economics unit and I very awkwardly during a teacher conference last month was like, "Do you want me to come in and talk to the kids about crypto?" And the teacher was like, "Uh uh, that's a nice offer. I'll let you know. Like clear clearly was both uh turned off, confused, disoriented by my offer. And I was like, it's a real thing. I I I'm a real person in the real company. Anyway, I have not yet been invited to speak to the second grade class, but if I do, I will be bringing that book as part of the scholarship to be studied.

So, really quick, our crypto good news this week. It's not exactly crypto, but it counts because the organization where all of the profits from Edward's book go to is really a fantastic organization. As he mentioned, it's designed to promote children's literacy, which I think we can all agree like what is more important. It's called reading is fundamental and it is uh you know was founded on the insight that inspiring the joy of reading is essential to helping children become skilled readers. and there still remains a US literary crisis and this organization is a really fantastic uh uh nonprofit that's been around for 60 years. So, please check it out. Um and by Edward's book.

So, on that note, we are going to hear from our sponsors that make this show possible. And when we come back, we're going to dig into AI, all things AI and the craziness that is mold book.

The world is about to see one of the largest infrastructure shifts of the century. New technologies are using more energy than ever before. But our legacy grids can't supply the demand and we are barreling towards a global bottleneck. So Fuse is rebuilding it. The energy network is an intelligent decentralized grid that coordinates smart devices to balance supply and demand. The network harmonizes existing infrastructure, increases grid capacity, and unlocks lowcost clean energy. Energy dollar is the native token of the network. The more electricity the world needs, the higher the demand for the energy network, the value of energy dollars may fluctuate. From one of Europe's fastest growing energy startups, follow at Fuse Energy on X to find out more.

If you're looking for help with crypto taxes, CryptoTax Girl is offering $100 off for Unchained listeners. They provide personalized cryptotax reports and returns and spots before April 15th are limited. Go to cryptotaxgirl.com/chained to save $100. Once again, the link is cryptotaxgirl.com/chained.

Well, we're back with Edward Woodford, the CEO of Zero Hash, and we are talking all things clarity. But now we're going to shift to AI. And we're lucky to have Jesse, who is really the queen of AI. And this is an important topic to talk