Hash Rate - Ep. 156 - James Altucher Talks $TAO

Hello everybody and welcome to hash rate. My guest today is the great and powerful James Altucher. Hello James.

Powerful before. Thank you Mark. It's good always good to be here.

You know people probably don't know. We do these podcasts and hash rates and stuff, but we also talk quite a bit about all things Bit Tensor mostly whenever I'm concerned about something. And you are I'm an optimist, but you're even more optimistic than me. So, that's a good thing. I can always call you for for for the optimistic view.

So, I'm your like bull bull whisperer, if you will. Yeah. because and everyone else uses me as that because I'm very much an optimist, but every now and then I'm like, what's going on here?

I mean, I have those moments, too. I mean, I gotta be honest. I mean, I think it's you're you the the good the way to be a good bull is to be responsible about being a bull and that means looking at the other side of it and being like, okay, in what ways can this go oh so horribly wrong and am I not looking at these things?

So, I I do that a lot. Actually, I don't talk about it a lot, but we'll we'll talk a little bit about some of that stuff on this show today, I think. But but I think you have to do that. You have to do that. And not only that, as we're we're professional optimists, meaning people know us. We're managing money where where you know, we have media properties. You know, you do hash rate, I do the TAPOD, I doaily.com. So we have a responsibility to not just be blindly optimistic but but to really to constantly question and and and people are looking to us and there's a responsibility to that.

If we were just blindly optimistic and I'm I'm investing from home and nobody knows who I am. Okay, I could change my mind. I could do different things. Of course I could change my mind here too, but it has to be really well thought out and then it has to be communicated or if I'm not changing my mind that has to be communicated as well.

Yeah, completely agree. Completely agree.

All right, let's start off with some current events in the Bit Tensor universe. And I think that the most the most important current event is the announcement that Ridges has now, I guess, merged with Leighton Holdings or has a partnership with them. Whatever it is, they are now functioning as one entity. And as you know, Leighton Holdings is headed up by JJ, right? and has on its staff such luminaries technical luminaries as VO right in the Bit Tensor space and ridges basically you know two weeks ago said the biggest announcement in their history was coming up in two weeks and I think all of us were more or less expecting a you know full-blown product release they are in sort of like a beta product release right now with limited access and and along came this right we we thought we were going to get a product release instead we got JJ right which I think sort of threw threw people off a little bit right initially anyway it threw people off and I I was talking to one of the editors at TA Daily who who frankly was disappointed but I think people I think people are disappointed for two reasons and and by the way we're going to we're going to get to the optimistic side of this thing which which was actually elucidated by by K the founder of Tao or Bit Tensor but I think a people thought like you thought that oh okay maybe they're they're going to have some great commercial product announcement I I personally thought when I was just guessing about this, I thought, oh, maybe a a big a seat license with a big Fortune 500 company.

That would be amazing because it shows they're competitive, you know, commercially with with Claude or Cursor or whatever. Um, so so there's a little disappointment from that because obviously that would have been news that would have sent the ridges sub token, you know, subnet token up 300% or whatever. Instead, the token, like you say, is down 40%. So I think people were a little disappointed in that. It's a very much even if it's good news, which we'll get to. Even if it's good news, it's very much a sell the news kind of phenomenon. This is like classic buy the rumor, sell the news. That's exactly what happened.

But but you know, the other thing is people are critical. Okay. Uh you know, JJ's been involved with a bunch of subnets and some of them have done okay. Some of them have done okay for JJ. Some of them have not done so well. Like Hone has not done so well. Towash did well for a long time has not done very well in the in the most recent, you know, Towflow type of fallouts. So, I think I think there's some frustration there.

By the way, none of that is is is I don't know that much about home, but like TASH is neither here nor there. JJ very successfully built a subnet that mined actual Bitcoin. Like that's amazing. So, okay, whatever the price is now, it's not it's not JJ's fault. He's he's doing a million things. He's running a VC firm. He's running late in Holdings. He's involved in a bunch of subnets.

But as const, you know, Jake Steves points out again, founder of Bit Tensor. JJ's a great product guy. He has built it's not easy to build a subnet and he's built several. Plus, he's been involved in open source projects for like 20 years and he has a really deep understanding of the philosophical underpinnings behind Bit Tensor and why Bit Tensor is going to succeed. He he understands the issues of being a subnet owner.

You know, when I talked to Shaquille about ridges, one of the things he told me that really kind of opened my eyes is that at least half the job of a subnet owner is is, you know, defeating people who are attempting to exploit your incentive system. So, so JJ also implicitly understands this as a subnet owner and you need subnet owners working on product. You can't just have have hire a random software guy and say, "Hey, build a user interface to this subnet because he's not going to understand the full capabilities of what a subnet can do."

Like JJ's and and and JJ's company Leon is not just JJ, it's a bunch of developers who are all experts on subnets and uh decentraliz decentralized products and you know commercializing products and and he's familiar with the entire ecosystem and and incentive mechanisms. So JJ really is, you know, I would say maybe, you know, the only other groups that are that sophisticated, there's JJ's group, maybe there's, uh, you know, General Tao Ventures, their group is very sophisticated on the development side. I don't know too many, you know, there's Yuma, um, they're very sophisticated on the development side. There's the guys, um, you know, behind, uh, data universe and so on. You know, Will Squires very sophisticated. So there's there's not like there's not like a million people who are who are capable of doing what what Leighton is signing up for.

And this is a big responsibility. It's not like Ridges is necessarily paying Leighton. From what I could see, it's like a an equity sort of deal, but not dilutive to subnet holders, which is to Shaquille's credit. He is very Shaquille also deeply understands how bit tensor works at a level by the way I would say at least 50% of subnet owners are not are don't understand uh like I've speak to subnet owners who really don't understand yes it's important to incentivize miners but it's also just as important to in incentivize subnet token holders you have to give them a reason to want to hold your subnet tokens and whether and equity holders.

If I own Tesla stock, I'm in I'm incentivized to own Tesla stock because maybe I think they'll sell more Teslas next year than this year. And I get a piece of that as an owner, a stockholder of Tesla shares. You know, Subnet token holders don't have the same incentives. And Shaquille at a very deep level understands this. He also deeply understands that without the only reason he's the best state-of-the-art AI coding software on the planet, better than cursor, better than claw that are valued at tens or hundreds of billions. The only reason he's the best is because he doesn't have employees creating his AI models. He has miners and miners are come from all around the world. It's the best AI talent around the world. They select themselves. It's permissionless.

So, so the only way he gets the best is by having the highest value subnet token. So, he understands at a very deep level if his subnet token does not have value to incentivize token holders to keep holding, he will no longer be the best state-of-the-art software for AI coding. He understands this. He successfully keeps at this. He's he's built amazing incentive mechanisms and he's still working on this. So, all of these guys know what they're doing. We have the best collection of experts in the world now building commercializing state-of-the-art software for AI coding. That's going to be successful. I just think it's not what people wanted and people are incorrectly I think a little too incorrectly uh judgmental on JJ's recent successes or failures. I mean we all have recent successes and failures. So I think this is a long-term story and it's still being told. But I I think this was a good decision. And I agree with Jake, the founder of Bit Tensor on this.

Yeah, JJ is a seasoned operator. And I I think one of the things that gets lost here is that um you know, we have a lot of people who are really great at backend stuff, especially in Bit Tensor, but also in all of crypto, right? And where typically uh they fall down is on the front end productization, the user interface, and the marketing, right? And I think that that that gets that gets lost off. That's very difficult to do.

So I think the major risk to bit tensor subnets is that they fail to productize and that by that I mean even though ridges has the world's best backend, it may not be competitive on the front end in terms of you know how nice it is to use for the engineers that are used to things like cursor and claude, right? like not only does it have to succeed on the back end, but it has to succeed on the front end and being at least on par with these other products, right? You can't forget about the user interface in the front end. And then even when you complete that piece of it, you have to market to these people and explain to them why ridges is better and why they should even try it. And then when they try it, they'll try it once. And if it's not up to the to snuff, they're going to leave and they'll never come back because the news is full of cursor and claude and anthropic and Claudebot and all this other hoopla going on.

And I think the other point in my mind is that, you know, ridges is doing something extraordinarily difficult. Not only are they trying to create a highly complex product, you know, when Bitcoin was born, right? There was no competition. Satoshi invented Bitcoin. There wasn't like a bank somewhere working on a Bitcoin also that competed with regular Bitcoin, right? Same thing with Ethereum, right? We both things were allowed to sort of sneak up on the world with these incredible new projects and get some momentum before anyone noticed them and went, "Hey, what's that?" Right? And and it took a long time for that to kind of happen.

Ridges is is attacking Earth's hottest market segment. Not only that, but the hottest market segment uh vibe coding inside the hottest market segment. And and every day there's some new crazy advance that comes out in that market segment that's all over. So last week, this past week, it's Cloudbot, right? Club out is everywhere. It's in all of our X feeds, right? So, if even if you have the world's best backend, like the challenge the the challenge level is 10 million, right? Like it's it's unbelievable they're even attempting this. And so, in order to and it was a very mature decision, I believe on Shaq's part to partner. He realized that he needed more help. He needed more firepower to go and attack this extremely complex uh task that he had set himself to. So, I I applaud it. I think it's overall a very very good development.

Yeah, particularly since again it is not dilutive to subnet token holders. It's preserving it preserves 100% of the value of the subnet token. If anything, it adds to the value of the subnet token because now you have more smart minds working on the value of the subnet token and and who understand the ecosystem. It's only a net positive.

And but look, you know, we've all spoken. Look, JJ is a friend of mine. We do the TAPOD together. He's an adviser on on TOEX, the company that the public company that that I run and or help run. And uh uh but look, JJ's, you know, he's he's all he's erratic. He he, you know, he says things about Barry Silbert, who's one of the the greatest evangelists for TA ever. Like probably a better evangelist for Tao than than Jake is. Like Barry Silbert's great. And and Barry Silbert also is an investor in TAX. Love the guy. I think JJ stepped way over the line, you know, talking about Barry and and look, I know JJ's backed off that since then, and I've told this to JJ, his face, but he's he's also an incredibly smart genius. If you sit down and talk to that guy, you realize this is a guy who knows what he's talking about. And now we have his brain. When he goes to sleep at night, he's thinking about how to make ridges a 10 billion dollar success. I am glad for that.

But sure, this is a classic sell the news. We were all expecting so much bigger. Instead, we got something that actually was very good, but just not a seat license with Microsoft and you know, it is what it is. We thought we were at the finish line and we we found out we got a couple more laps to go. That's basically it, right? And that's just the realistic assessment.

And a lot of I think a lot of people don't realize in in in Bitensor like we've we you and I have been around the you know sort of normal startup space that is VC backed you know eightmon product cycles you know sales and marketing right that it's it's like a very comprehensive um holistic thing right to make a company make a startup work and a lot of people in crypto and usually it's private like while while it's in the gestation and embryionic phase right you do that you do that in a warehouse somewhere nobody's he's messing with you other than your board maybe and your VCs, but that's it. But in but in Bit Tensor, your subnet is [ __ ] with you every day, right? You got people screaming at you in the Discord. It's like you're public on day one, right? Like you're a startup, but you're also a public company, right? Which is like the worst of both worlds. And that and so you're just in this insane pressure cooker, right, from day one, which is not the way things are normally done.

And in these normal companies, right, if you listen to Mark Andrees speak and and you and I know this, like each one of these things is a sausage factory. It's ugly what happens inside the building and and there are panics and things go wrong and uh and then you pivot and then things go wrong again then you fire someone then you hire someone then things go really right and then you get over your skis and then things go really wrong right that whole process now happens in public right and and that that is sort of abnormal right so I think I think the the effect of that dynamic on the embryionic startup um is is not good and in fact there's a new sort of hurdle that that we have to overcome. The capital formation that it provides is exceedingly good. So there is a good side to it but it is sort of a new dynamic that we didn't used to have to deal with in the old world.

Well and and you brought up a very good point in the very beginning which is that and and I'll summarize it a different way. Crypto has an interface problem and subnets doubly so because we're dealing with two layers of crypto and and what what what we mean by that what you mean by that and what I mean by that right now is is that okay here's ridges it's we hear the news every day they're better than cursor they're better than claude on all the tests okay how do I use it where can I sit down and type in uh give me a a dating site for left-handed people. Boom, the website's made. Well, you know, cursor and Claude, you could do that, but like ridges, I don't know how to do that. There's an interface issue. They have to make a great interface. And by the way, this is true for ridges, but it's also true for Ethereum. It's hard to set up a programming environment for Ethereum. Um, which is, by the way, the easiest crypto to use to make projects. So, so, so crypto in general has an an interface problem.

By the way, the internet had an interface problem for the first 30 years of the internet. So, starting in 1971, 1991, you have Tim Berners Lee with the web. By the way, the web was not easy. You needed to install a web server. You needed to learn, you know, HTML, Pearl, uh, or C, however you were going to do your CGI bin programs. like, you know, the web had an interface problem until there was things like WordPress and and and you know, starting from there really in the early 2000s and then it became easier. Now, of course, it's trivial to make a website. I used to charge I used to charge $75,000 I was in the website development business. I would charge $75,000 to HBO to make the website for the Dennis Miller show, which was like three pages, because they didn't know how to do it. And now you charge 75 cents for that. Like, it's trivial. So, so, so it'll it'll change and it's getting better.

You know, you're you're involved in in Hippius, which is like uh like the the subnets that's like Dropbox. And I remember the first time I tried Hippius. Uh and Hippius is great. I love the idea. I was a seed investor of Filecoin. I love the space. I know the Dropbox guys. Uh Hippius, it was I didn't I couldn't just drag and drop a file onto Hippius and use it. I had to convert my cache to towel first which is hard. Okay, that's hard for the average user first and then I had to like configure my you know it's was complicated. They fixed a lot of those problems because you know I wrote them a letter Barry liked my letter you like my you know all the people everybody the hippiest guys responded to me which by the way is the benefits of crypto is that we're all in this together. The hippiest guys didn't take it as criticism were all on the ground floor together. So the hippiest guys made the changes. great now. Hippius is fantastic. So, so and it's getting better.

So, so in general, this is a pro problems lead to investment results. Like if if Tao and Ridges and Hippius and all the other submits were perfect, then Tao would be at $7,000, $10,000 already. It would be Sammy Cassab's base case, which is $4,000 up to it, his bull case, which is, you know, 10,000 plus. So, so but the fact that there is this interface problem but it's going to get solved. It's solvable. It's not rocket science. It's solvable. That's why Bit Tensor is where it is now and why it's a good investment premise. Now you have 128 companies. Some of them already state-of-the-art companies, but they have easy relatively easy to solve problems, which is interface issues, marketing issues, and so on. I'm not saying they're trivial problems, but it's not like putting a rocket into space. So that's my rant on that.

Yeah. No, it's a good rant and I think I mean I I you know I just want to go back to my my core point here especially with ridges and and with all the subnets. Success is messy until you succeed, right? And and it doesn't always look like success and there there are many obstacles and many failures along the way and many arguments and and many things that look look, you know, look shaky, right? Uber went through Uber was like illegal, right? and and Uber had competition from Lift and Uber ran out of money, right? Like there all kinds of like disasters along the way before they became Uber, right? And it and and that that that is that side of it is largely unseen by the public. They only see like, oh, they IPOed, right? It must have been a straight line of success to get here, right? And it doesn't look like that at all. And I Mark Andre again captured it perfectly. All of these things are sausage factories. It's ugly on the inside, right? Like and and it just subnets you can see the inside for the first time publicly, right? And that's that's a new dynamic.

One of the earlier employees, one of the early employees of OpenAI was telling me the other day, Open and I don't know if this was true or not, but this person wasn't an early employee of of OpenAI. One of their their their initial goal to prove that AI is possible is they wanted to make a robotic hand that could solve Rubik's Cube. That was their initial goal. And of course that the the chat GPT oh let's make something we can that loads all the text in the world and we can talk to it that was like an afterthought and that has a billion users now so you just never know you don't you really don't I mean I know that you remember Hotmail so you remember Hotmail right so Hotmail the guy who who found it right there the story I heard was that they went into Draper fish with Jervson well not Jervson yet because Jervson hadn't become a partner yet because he became a partner became a partner because of Hotmail. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And so he so what they what they pitched him they had like a a pitch about like a Java toolkit and they went in and Jeron's like I don't know about this. And then as the guy was walking out the door like a we got this other kind of [ __ ] idea for like I don't know mail I guess like and a website and Jervisson's like wait that's a great idea. I'd fund that. That's how it happened right they they totally didn't think that was the thing that was going to get them a term sheet but that was that little sort of you know off-the cuff idea is what excited Jervson. So to his credit, Jordan knew what he was looking at, right?

Yeah. Yeah. And and it was so interesting. And what what did Hotmail solve? It solved the interface problem for SMTP, which was the send mail transfer protocol on top of, you know, IP on top of TCP IP, which was the internet protocol. So So that was the interfa it was the first web front-end interface for email. Boom. Yes. Yeah. which seems like it's which was sort of a crazy thing to think of back then. You didn't because you were supposed to have Microsoft Outlook on your desktop and that's like how you connected to email, right? Like that was the standard way and that was just like you know it was a lot of pain and you had to have an SMTCP server as you said, right? This was just no just sign up and get an email which is commonplace now but that was not common place back then. It's a crazy idea right in its day.

So, crazy. And and and here's the thing, 128 subnets on Bit Tensor. By the way, since we've last spoke on hash rate, they've implemented the whole dregistration thing. So, in general, every month, the quality of subnets on Bit Tensor is going up because the shitty ones go away, new ones get built, and you know, and they're eliminated very quickly if they're no good. So you have 128 decent to great potential companies on Bit Tensor and some of them already, let's say five to 10 of them are state-of-the-art, meaning they're the best in the world at what they do. And the reason they're the best in the world is because of what Bit Tensor Tow offers, which is this decentralized access to the best AI talent or the best programmers on the planet. Like you don't have to like hire someone straight out of Stanford. Maybe some kid in his basement in Usbekiststan is the best AI programmer on the planet. That guy will find his way to your company before he finds his way to open AI if you're a tensor subnet. And so, so some of these state-of-the-art companies are going to build a good interface, are going to build a good commercial product, are going to succeed and become multi-billion dollar valuations. VCs are not going to be able to get access to the equity of those companies. So, they're going to have to buy subnet tokens because, by the way, if in order for those companies to be the best, they're going to have to create value for their subnet tokens.

And any buying my observing TA's trading behavior, any and I've been observing it now for a long time. Buying of subnets is a incredibly bullish thing for Tao. It's much more bullish than simply buying Tao. And I'm not totally sure I understand why. I think the reason why is because when I when you know when you're staking into subnets you're essentially buying at market for tow so it kind of pushes I I don't know I'm just that part I'm just making up I have no idea but I've noticed that whenever there's a a big sudden new interest in staking in subnets uh TA goes up really fast quite a bit almost as if there was a market order on Tao so I'm just connecting the dots and trying to figure it out Jake or you probably someone else knows this better than me but um uh uh some of these subnets are going to succeed and I think you know Sami Kasab's uh report his base case was if even like two or three subnets succeed in this way then you have a bearish case of Tao being at 4,082 price which is yeah like 20 times higher than it is this moment and and the reason the reason he gets that way a is look open AI has a $500 billion valuation you know any you know any any reasonable VC funded AI company has a10 billion dollar valuation tow bit tensor which is a collection of 128 uh AI companies has a $2.5 billion valuation it's it's like it's like Bill Gates ATM settings is the value of you know his cash ATM settings is the value of Bit Tensor right now.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's totally crazy how how low it is. And um and yeah, I Sammy Cassv's report is is really awesome. I I really you I read that several times and it was exceedingly well put together. Um I don't know if you know, but I did my own report just a couple weeks ago which I don't know if you've read yet. I wanted to ask you about it. So look, you know what's what's I did a different thing. Yeah. I mean just I mean the focus I mean Sammy already did like Sammy's report so I wasn't going to like do that, right? Like Sammy's already made the definitive sort of analytical report. My report addressed two things. One was I wanted to explain Bit Tensor to a newbie as simply as possible. Right? So the it's a very the voice is very sort of, you know, one sentence, two sentence paragraphs, you know, very sort of easy to read as much as I could make it easy to understand. stealing the best metaphors from everybody, you know, and adding a few of my own in there, but just sort of crystallizing it and putting it in one place, right? So, that that is really the the primary goal of the report. The secondary sort of the second half of it is is characterizing the state of the ecosystem, right? Like what are the wallets like? Can I buy subnets on centralized exchanges? No, you can't. Not really. Um, you know, what what could change that? What could be a catalyst which sort of lights this thing on fire? Is it similar to the ICO phase of Ethereum, right? could it be what would make it similar to the ICO phase of Ethereum you know all the all these sorts of things that was the focus of the report so a little bit little bit different you know uh twist on on looking at our universe but I think very complimentary yeah and look that stuff like that's important like people need to understand the basics they need to understand what a subnet is they need to understand what are the best subnets what are the current subnets out there not even what are the best or what are the current ones out there and all this stuff is very important Yeah, totally agree.

All right, let's talk about a couple a couple different things now. So, have you heard about this uh this big DAT uh by DNA fund? So, it's a big announcement this week that uh you know DN D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D D and I've heard different things about this in terms of the numbers. Um what what I've been able to gather the number what they're aiming for and I don't know if they don't have this yet, but what they're aiming for is a $300 million DAT digital asset treasury company. Um DNA fund is behind it. So that's Brock Pierce and Scott Walker and some other folks. Brock Brock Brock and Scott are the two people I know personally. Um there there obviously other folks involved probably that are more central to this particular effort. Um and they have acquired Rizzo, Rizzo's validator business, right? So we all know Rizzo because he's one of the major validators in the Bitensor space and one one of the most trusted ones and one of the largest. Um and also now Vanta. So this is the new information to come out this week. Vantis subnet 8, the artist formerly known as uh proprietary trading network P btn um is also now part of this DAT and the idea is if you know when you have a DAT you want to have a you know a real business also you don't want to just hold coins and Rizzo's validation business and Vanta's uh prop trading firm infrastructure business will form the core of the actual revenue generated business of this DAT have you heard about this what have you heard does that sort of square up with what you know.

Yeah, that scores up with what I know. You know, I appreciate that they bought these other here. Here's here's the pros and cons. First off, I heard that that they're going to be focused on not just buying TA, but buying subnets, right? They're not they're not interested in being another DA for because look, there's me, there's Oblong, there's GTO, there's XTAW, there's Sello. Okay. And by the way, I don't have to push my stock or say, "Oh, buy my stock versus the we're all going to go up if Tow goes up. We're all going to go down if TA goes down." There's no need to like there's no pumping stocks here. Like, it is what it is. And when people say, "Oh, DATs are are over." Like Micro Strategy, Bit Mine, they're all over. No, they're not. If if Bitcoin goes up, the DATs for Bitcoin will go up. If if Ethereum goes up, the DATs for Bitcoin will go up. If Ethereum goes down, Bit Mine's going to go down. It's just it is what there's no you can't business. Yeah. So, so but but they're they're differentiating themselves by being 300 million into subnets which by the way if you do it right is going to be much more successful anyway. If you do it wrong it'll fail faster but if you do it right it's going to be more successful. I'm not quite sure they needed to buy businesses. Um now their claim was that they need to buy to be so so a debt imply implies eventually they're going to be a public company. I don't think they've announced that they're a public company yet. So that they have they have as I'm pretty sure I don't have it in front of me, but I'm I've seen it. Yeah, I've seen that this is meant to be a public company. So yes, I don't know how they're doing it. I don't know if they're IPOing or shell company or what, but that Yes. So I know so that I heard I know that they're going to be a public company and I've heard been hearing this for three or four months. I don't know what public company they have. I don't think they found the company yet or else they would tell us. Um, and you don't really they you don't really need to be a revenue generating business. The SEC has already decided that okay, you could just be buying cryptos and that's your re that's your business. We're buying cryptos because cryptos are not securities. You know, if you're a it's a nuance, it's the 1933 SEC act versus the 1940 SEC act. If you're a public company buy, you can't buy securities unless you fall under a different set of laws within the SEC called the 1940 act which are more restrictive. So, but the SEC has ruled that, you know, tokens like Bitcoin, Ethereum, Tao are not securities. So, you don't really need a revenue generating business to buy, but they did anyway. The reason why and and look, Frank, he's got one of the best validators. You got you got a lot of competition in the validator space. You've got Yuma, which is really institutional. And as TA becomes more institutional, Yuma is gonna is going to dominate that space. But maybe, you know, Frank with his validator will will uh will rise up to be institutional quality or already has institutional quality. So, you know, he he didn't necessarily need that, but it does probably give him some insight into into which subnets are performing well and so that gives him some insider knowledge, which is great. The other thing about the other great thing about buying a validator, here's the thing. Here's the key insight into valuing a DAT, a digital asset treasury. And this is really important and not a lot of people know this. Um there