Building the Onchain Super App | Xiao-Xiao J. Zhu

18 months ago, Jupiter was mainly a web only DEX aggregator on Solana that did a very fundamental job of stitching together the different very fragmented liquidity venues and dexes and basically provide best execution prices to users on Solana.

Today it is way more than that. Right? Today Jupiter is the largest onchain application platform on Salana by users, by trading volume and also by TVL.

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Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of the Lightseed podcast. Today I am joined by Shiao Shao, the new president of Jupiter. Glad to have you on. How are you doing today?

Very good. How are you doing?

Great. It's I think great opportunity to have you just I think you just mentioned to me maybe a little over a month sort of in the new role. So glad to have you on and kind of talk about, you know, maybe your outlook coming from a little bit different of a background like jumping into sort of the onchain world and get your view on where things are headed, you know, for crypto, for onchain businesses and for Jupiter specifically, of course. Obviously that will be important to you in this new role.

So maybe to kick things off, I think it would be great to get some detail on your background. You spent some years working in sort of institutional strategy at BCG, KKR, like some big names. What prompted you to make the leap or sort of take the jump from kind of where you were to, you know, diving in fully to like a really onchain org and take on this role at Jupiter?

Yeah, I think I've always liked to have new challenges in my life. You know, I started my career actually as a professional concert pianist. Some people might know that I played for George Bush Senior and Garbage and the likes when I was a kid, performed around the world. And later on I switched, you know, into the world of business and strategy in finance.

I worked for eight years at Boston Consulting Group. You know, advising for Fortune 500 companies. And back in 2016 is actually where I first fell down the crypto rabbit hole when I led one of the first projects BCG ever did in around blockchain. We were actually working with the beers at the time, the biggest diamond producer in the world.

And we actually built a blockchain based asset tracking platform for natural diamonds at the time, permissioned. Of course, Ethereum didn't quite work back then yet. And that's how I like through the research like really fell down the the rabbit hole. I think Dominic Williams at the time was was our blockchain adviser who founded ICP later but that's how I first like got into into the space and and became really fascinated.

And also my career took me into like many different other areas and built different startups and companies and startups in the web two I always stayed personally very fascinated you know investing into the space and you know working with founders in the space.

About five years ago, I got head hunted by KKR to join to join their team in in Europe, leading digital value creation in in Europe, working with some of the biggest billion dollar revenue portfolio companies that KKR essentially owned in making them essentially better.

But as soon as I as I joined back in 2020, there was this big question of like, okay, crypto is coming up. What should we do as a firm, right? Should we stay out of it? Should we invest? Should we go all in?

And we spun up the task force around digital assets which I which I had the privilege to lead throughout the years. And that's how I basically devised the strategy to kind of like get exposure for a company like AKR, you know, one of the largest private investment firms in the world with 700 billion AUum. And how do we not overexpose, right, a firm like AKR but still like get the optionality for the future.

And so over the over the years we invested I still say we but you know I helped KKI invest out of its balance sheet into great early stage asset managers in the crypto space like Parfy, Dragonfly Ethereal Ventures, you know fund led by Joe Luben, Bitcraft, etc. basically have like you know pockets of expertise and where where we were large LPs into into some of these funds to kind of get insights and deal flow over over time but then also backing you know a bigger institutional digital asset company like Anchorage you know who led the investment in their last fund raise back then as well with the premise of like basically bringing digital assets adoption to the institutional world.

So I I guess in that world I basically had that that vantage point, you know, how how to basically look at the digital assets world from from the seed of someone deep in Wall Street and I think a couple things have changed over the years, right? That that in the market essentially and that was I think gave me also the impetus to really like make the full-time jump.

I think firstly it's very very clear to me that you know the line between onchain and traditional finance has been blurring and it really accelerated in the last 12 to 24 months right very clearly you know bitcoin is is now a national and corporate treasury asset is not just you know owned by whales anymore stable coins really becoming a global payment and remittance rail not only adopted by crypto companies but also by banks you know fintech web two startups.

And then very clear like you can see that in the data onchain trading venues are rapidly taking share from centralized exchanges it's still like you know probably 8020 if you look at across spot and and per onchain is really a significant part and and and that's that's there's only one one direction that this is going and then very clearly that you know new defy primitives tokenized assets and things like prediction markets are really reshaping the way you know capital and information markets are are are are working today, right?

And then I think the second thing that has changed and it wasn't possible really like 3 to 5 years ago is like the technology and the infrastructure is really like growing up and I think the the the value creation that is really happening today versus even like 3 to 5 years ago is really moving from an infra level to an application level.

Right? Block space on L1 L2s is increasingly commoditized. It doesn't matter where you build it as long as you actually build something that people want to use. And so this new wave of onchain applications like Jupiter, like Hyperlquid, you know, fully on chain, not really like CFI, but but properly D5 are generating significant revenues and a lot of users are adopting it. And that's that's really has changed.

And so in my thesis sort of like the the modes around where value is being created it's really shifting from infrastructure towards distribution towards brand towards user experience. And I think all of that I think is underpinned by this belief core belief that onchain finance is a fundamentally better way to do finance.

Trifi is is really huge, but it's opaque, inefficient, and it's really built around, you know, having to trust gatekeepers, like banks, asset managers, intermediaries. And I fully believe that building on chain on crypto rails really empowers a new and overtime more superior way to kind of do finance which is open, transparent, globally accessible, you know, centered around self- custody, self-s sovereignty and then things are simply done in a on a permissionless way and trustless way.

And so I think I wanted to be at the front line of that shift and not not watching it from the old world. And that that I think was the impetus of sort of going from a very good role at at KKR to kind of going fully on chain.

I think that makes a lot of sense. I think you laid it out pretty nicely there. Maybe one followup on that I'm curious. You do see at least I I think the point around sort of these decentralized versus maybe centralized venues at least within crypto we're starting to see sort of an uptake in market share for some of these decentralized venues. you know the pers with hyperlquid and some of these new per exchanges has been a good example but also on the spot side you know we've seen Salana spot volumes onchain kind of explode recently in this past year for a few pairs at least how do you think about you know some of these centralized venues are actually thinking about coming on chain as well right like Coinbase and and Robin Hood and some of these teams that are maybe a little bit Jupiter yeah absolutely yeah is so I guess it just plays into your thought there that just they're going to have to come to you basically. It's like you wanted to be on the front lines and so these businesses like they're sort of going to be forced to to come where you are, you know, where Jupiter and where the other apps on chain already are sort of already at.

Yeah. I think look the the the worlds are merging, right? I think a lot of the C5 trading venues, they realize that they see the data, right? They see where where where user adoption is going and a lot of them are adopting a strategy of they'd rather disrupt themselves a little bit, right? building their own wallet, building their own like onchain integrations, uh then basically waking up in in two three years and realizing that you know they they you know they they're not part of this this at all and that they have to do something much more radical.

But like for us I would say from a Jupiter perspective you know we realized that the onchain finance world is still extremely I mean despite the early successes of of Jupiter and and hyperlquid and a and so on it's still a tiny market right we're just at the very very beginning if you really like it's very difficult in onchain to kind of have fully accurate unique user numbers like like like you would would expect in a web two world.

But onchain, you know, my estimate is like we probably have singledigit millions of unique users that are that are active in some some way, right? That translates into potentially more tens of millions of of wallet addresses that are that are that are active. But but but I mean if you just like look at singledigit millions for the entire onchain properly onchain, I'm not saying CFI, right? That I don't that I don't mean is is is CFI.

CIFA we have a lot more like Binance had probably 300 million users a portion of that monthly active Robin Hood is around 30 million right and I would say proper onchain is around single digit so for me there's like a 10x to 100x opportunity right to really grow out that market and I'm I'm definitely seem very clear where at so early that it's not about whether Jupiter or or hyper liquid have it right like everyone is building at this future from different angles.

And we're we want to kind of like champion this whole category and this term and this notion around, you know, onchain finance is the way how crypto is supposed to be, right? How crypto is today is not necessarily how we wanted crypto to be, right? Like most of crypto today, the 300, 400, 500 million users that somehow interact with crypto, most of that is onto centralized exchanges that are offshore, maybe not regulated, but you also don't have the transparency, right, of what's actually going on.

And only a very tiny part of that are are actually like, you know, self-custody. So, I think there's a big opportunity for for for both sides to to also win, right? like giving more value and transparency back back to users like we're doing with the Jupusd stablecoin for example you're moving away from these kind of like centralized gatekeeping concept and really working towards a vision where where crypto or like fully on chain crypto is is how it's supposed to be empowering users around the world without without you know collecting every single of like data that that that customers have keeping their privacy.

And yet everything you know not manual driven not blackbox but transparent and and code based and I think you know not all of finance will be able to kind of like transform itself into this this vision but I fully believe at the end state there should be a much more significant part of global finance that will happen onchain end to end and there will be basically that that parallel world where you know if you need trusted it intermediar is you need someone to kind of call and you know speak to and you want to hand over your assets to someone who who you happen to trust that's fine right but I I think like especially also with with the younger demographics that are fully digital native more and more trust will will be built around brands and platforms and user experiences that are fully permissionless that are fully on chain and I think we want to work towards that both from a product experience perspective from a from a tech underlying infrastructure perspective as well as from a branding growth marketing perspective.

Great way I think to segue straight into I'd love to get your thoughts on you know you're coming in you know a month in or so to the role you mentioned there some ideas around the product approach some marketing approaches like what do you think like what are top priorities top goals for you coming in and being at Jupiter in 2026 what are you thinking about and where do you think you guys like really need to press on the gas this year I think to I'm sure most listeners of of of this podcast will be already using Jupiter but just to level set right like I think it's just also like the speed of change of the space and of a protocol like Jupiter like 80 months a 18 months ago Jupiter was mainly a web only dex aggregator on Salana that you know did a very fundamental job of stitching together the different very fragmented liquidity venues and dexes on and and basically provide best execution devices to to users on Salana.

Today it is way more than that. Right? Today Jupiter is the largest onchain application platform on Salana by users by trading volume and also by TVL. Right? And I would kind of think when I looked at Jupiter outside in before I joined, I I really thought of it as kind of a Robin Hood but fully on chain and probably precoid, right? If you think about, you know, what Robin Hood was pre-COVID, it had a very loyal retail use that primarily traded longtail meme stocks, right? And around this core, right? Obviously during co that took off but with the basically that adoption they kept building adjacent products right that fed into this flywheel of you know not only can you do your meme stocks but you can do a whole bunch of other financial activities also on the on the on the app right and and so very important for us was was that sort of building out this super chain the super app thesis into into the into the reality today.

So I would say today Jupiter is probably the cleanest and most comprehensive expression of application adoption and activity on chain and especially on Solana of course right because we're almost like in every market or segment or like whatever you can imagine you can do on chain in a financial way Jupiter offers something and and that distribution and that aggregation of demand I think ultimately is also like what is very attractive right for someone like Coinbase even unis swap right and and Robin Hood to ultimately they want to integrate with that because that's sort of the one-stop distribution you know layer that we have and we have aggregated the liquidity we have aggregated the the demand and we are the sort of most full stack sort of onchain you know user layer essentially.

And today I think just to level set right 2025 Jupiter did over one trill million dollars in an in annual trading volume across bot and per we generated hundreds of millions of fees. We distribute hundreds of millions of fees back to liquidity providers. And then out of the remaining sort of net revenues that we generated around half of that goes into buying back the tokens as well. So that's sort of the the the current state.

We are probably the most diversified onchain businesses out there with I think now 12 revenue generating product and business lines and we're basically building a growing and virtuous flywheel for users, liquidity providers, token holders and and partners. We have over 300 partner integrations into our tech stack via APIs. As mentioned, we generated hundreds of millions of revenues for our partners. And we want to make it also like as easy as possible for developers and other projects to integrate into the Jupyter API to kind of benefit from this this this this whole super super app sort of thesis, right? Not just on the front end but also really full stack, right?

We also, by the way, one of the largest Solana validators now because we realized it was important to be able to control the user experience. We had to also own the underlying infrastructure, the the RPC and the validator as well. So we spun up a team and and and and over short amount of time we also like became a very very relevant sort of infrastructure player in the ecosystem. So that that's I think the the today right I think you your question was about how to go from there and then obviously people might already know right nobody ships like Jupiter so every day if you go onto our like I'm overwhelmed today like just every day there's so many new things that our product teams are building and shipping announcing right every single day literally but if I sort of aggregate that towards sort of a more on a onto a more strategic level I would say the growth factors going ahead is you I'd like to always think about what are the 10x opportunities, right? We're already one of the largest, you know, on Salana in on chain, but how do we actually get to like 10x, right? This and and I would say there's like probably four and five angles to think about it.

One is I would say most of our users and wallets today are using interacting with us via desktop. That's the way how trenchers today kind of interact, right? that's where most of our functionalities are. But I think in order to really like on board and you know on board the masses beyond just a sort of smaller crypto bubble we are really pushing very hard mobile right the mobile app as kind of the main delivery mechanism to on board the masses and create synergies across existing products a wheel right so we now have launched the the mobile V3 we're we're going to shortly launch a mobile V4 much more focused on a sort traditional retail audience not just sort of super super defy users and stuff like per today is is not app native but we will bring in app native I I think that will be just like a that's low hanging fruit right that that we'll simply have to do and we want to be simply like much cheaper and much faster than existing mobile app alternatives of Solana and we we're already there today and we can see in the numbers that that we're like taking share right from a low base but taking share quickly. So that's number one.

Number two I think is onboarding as we mentioned before on boarding new user groups via strategic partnership integrations. We have built the most advanced trading engine on Salana right like most of the trading activity routes through Jupiter. And so why don't we make that available for for big platforms that are not today native on Salana or even crypto right fully on chain and so an announcement I'm sure people have seen right Robin Hood is integrated with Jupiter UniS swap is integrated with Jupiter Coinbase we announced I think a couple weeks ago and Anchorage as well right because we want to also like offer more institution audience that are that have their assets crypto assets with c qualified custodians But if some of them also want to have access to kind of onchain trading activities and onchain lending or borrowing activities like we want to have that that integration and we want to make that available also to the institutional audience. So I think there's definitely also like a 10x opportunity. We can do a lot more. There's a lot more names that we can we can sort of work with.

And then third one is what we already anyway do right new product launches that that basically tap into the new you know addressable markets and potentially can bring new sources of fees and revenues. Prediction markets were already built out. I think two weeks ago we launched the droop USD right and and this is really not thought as a revenue line because we really want to simply build the best onchain onchain native stable coins and we want to give the value back to the ecosystem and not like centralized you know stable coin issuers just keep all of the yield for their own sort of profit books. We want to grow the entire ecosystem. We want to sort of give that value back to to our to our users to our users and distribution partners.

Number four, I think if you really think about constraints today of onchain, it's really about bridging onchain to the real world or traditional finance if you want. So we are we have a team also like building what we call Jupiter global which is essentially a a a a payment stack where we want to basically create best pricing on ramp routing you know payment cards QR seamless QR payments especially in emerging markets to not basically having to kind of pay you know fees to card networks or intermediaries directly with QR I think that will be very differentiated and then obviously authentication we want to have Jupiter ID across web two and web three. So to really like onboard people into like having an onchain assets and h having real world utility is something that we think very hard and very long about.

And so in in the coming weeks and months we'll release a number of very exciting functionalities that will give simply give you a lot more of the options and utility of of holding and using your assets that you anyway already have in your Jupyter wallet. And then I think the final one I think just theoretically conceptually today we are the largest super app on Salana but for the Nomi user right that is also uses Robin Hood and now may try out Jupiter he or she doesn't care about Salana ultimately right or on what which L1 well L2 things are being settled on right like also if I send a bank trust with you I don't care if it's underlying settlements or swift or something else I just care it arrives cheap, fast and and yeah and I understand what what's going on basically right and and then so I think omni chain execution is also something that we have been working on right like really being able to offer assets across chain all assets is something that that I think will 10x the user experience there's different ways how you can sort of achieve it it's it's a very hard technical problem but but our team is also working very hard on that so I would Okay, these are the the five very different growth factors that I think you have to hit on all of them in order to really get to like 10x and beyond growth.

But I think if there's one team in onchain finance, it's it's probably the the the Jupiter team because yeah, the full stack capabilities, product, UX, and and underlying infrastructure, you need to be able to do do all of that to crack crack some of these very hard problems.

Great overview there. A lot of stuff, a lot of points to double click into potentially. One I one I think I want to maybe jump into is the stable coin. Obviously stable coins, they've been a big, you know, talking point. You know, people within Trady are like getting more interested. There's more eyes there. There's obviously legislation, you know, in the US that's, you know, there's some details, pending details around how stable coins might be treated kind of going forward. How are you thinking about like what I think what we've seen emerge within the space is that more and more platforms and now Jup is one of them are going after this like white label stable coin approach and then you know you can kind of decide to hey maybe we give some of the yield back to our users you know maybe we keep some of it for revenue purposes bunch of different approaches but are we really entering this world where you know every platform is going to have their own stable coin kind of maybe in a similar way to a lot of the financial platforms today like fintech apps, you go in and you have a means to save some cash there and maybe they give you some yield via cash suite product or something along those lines. Is is that sort of an inevitable future you think where we've got thousands of stable coins because every platform's got one and it's just the way to go.

Yeah, I think there's two forces, right, that are a little bit against each other. There's first of all very strong network effects on the existing sort of sable networks. That's why Tether and Circle are just so strong and the distribution they've built is very hard to kind of displace. But I I also think I believe the end target state is inevitable that we'll get into a world where there will be almost like an infinite number of stable coins. And it just makes sense for different platforms even countries first of all and platforms on the other hand side to launch their own stable coins because it's just so it makes so much sense right to kind of like better control like the the the the ability to kind of issue stable coins and and having the ability to decide what to do with the value that's been created right on top of that I think it's very clear right and if we just look at the numbers I'm sure people are familiar with it like 300 billion of total supply in in in stable coins probably you know 30 trillion of of transaction volumes which makes it already today more than more than Visa or Mastercard and it's it's only going up right from here but despite that only a very small part of that 300 you know billion of supply actually returns any value to kind of users or or if at all, right?

And so the centralized stable coin issuers are making north of 10 billion of net profits per year. Probably more, right? uh so that's if you run the numbers roughly 3%. So makes sense, right? Roughly 3 to 4% of the total supply, right, of T bill yields. That checks out. that is basically being kept in the in in a box as as profits of the issuers. And so theoretically and conceptually doesn't doesn't make sense, right? There's obviously different ways. Banks obviously think very long and hard about it. They feel very much threatened if if this yield is is is is going back to users because resembles deposits. But there's like all kinds of innovative ways how you can basically experiment about giving this value back right not necessarily directly as yield that that that doesn't work but how we basically these were some of the principles right how we kind of designed Jupusd and we're very committed in experimenting and innovating this in a way to kind of solve this major flaw in the in the current stable coin market we want that value essentially to flow back to a to to to our users to the ecosystem and that flywheel of usage within our ecosystem, right?

And so I think today if you deposit the Jupusd into Jupyter lend which was lending borrow protocol like Jupusd will simply receive additional rewards that are come from you know including a significant portion of the yield from the underlying black rockck tokenized T builds. But then over time that that composability of a D5 first stable coins will also really come into play. We're very excited to kind of offer some very in innovative mechanisms to our users. For example, like it's just brainstorming. is not not yet live. But some of the stuff is like, you know, you can keep basically the GPSD, you know, the the tokenized version of your GPSD in the lending in the lending protocol, but then while you're doing a prediction markets bet or a limit order, very often you kind of normally you would have to pull whatever your assets are from any lending, you know, vault or mechanism and you have to kind of submit that order.

And if you set a very low order, you might wait a couple weeks, right? or a couple months until the order gets triggered if at all but in that time you actually don't get any yield right but we want to make it in a way like if you kind of submit the the the order in Jupusd and you already have USD deposit it into the lending protocol to to to earn yield we can make it in a way like just you kind of directly submit the order the limit order with the you know JL Jubc we need to find a better name for that but the tokenized version of of that of that receipt token. And then until that order is triggered or the prediction market bet is actually cashed in, you will keep earning yield via the lending protocol. Right?

So, some of these things just seems to make sense from our perspective, from a user perspective, but it's just the way the current crypto market is designed. You cannot do that, right? But we want to basically like do some of that with our own and we can only do that if we have our own stable coin, right? We cannot do that with a with a different one because otherwise we cannot design these intricacies in in in a certain way that benefits the users ultimately.

Yeah, those are great points. I think that speaks to some of the you know sort of platform synergies that you hinted at trying to go after for users. The one of the other big points that you jumped on was mobile the focus on mobile Jupyter mobile getting you know more users on boarded onto that I guess how are you and the team thinking about the approach there I I feel like within crypto the oftentimes the marketing does not extend much beyond you know the tokens out here's the airdrop come use our pro protocol or like the you know points are up come come use the protocol. How are you thinking about getting you know onboarding new users to mobile?

Yeah, I think mobile is as as mentioned super critical. I think we started the the mobile native journey relatively late. But it's also very clear to us that this is kind of one of the major delivery mechanisms that we have to kind of on board people outside of crypto. Having said that, there's still a lot of homework that our team is catching up on. So today we've been basically running this 21 day. We're still in the middle of that mobile v3 21 a day. We call it the trencher R campaign that basically introduced 21 new features in as many days, you know, culminating in a full-scale public release on January 22nd.

And we want to first establish Jupiter as the the true one-stop shop for, you know, onchain crypto by vertically integrating every essential financial service. you know price discovery most people already use us for that but also analytics your terminal needs and then execution right into a single super app interface and we want to remove the traditional friction of decentralized finance and offer like institutional grade tools like shadow lane for sub-second speeds prediction execution for slippage reduction and some of that and over time we will also introduce you know inclusion of gasless transactions which I think will be very important to kind on board you know new users that are not used to kind of keep some Solana for gas transactions.

This is like just one additional step, right, that that we need to kind of abstract away and then much more better integrate I think droop USD stablecoin into the overall experience as well as things like per right the per today is not not yet updated but like just all of these things I think are happening today I believe we're already the the the strongest and the best you know execution on amongst mobile apps within just Solana on chain but still addressed to kind of a power user segment. I think what we will like after we completed the V3 the focus would very quickly shift is already shifting towards V4 which will be much more focused on normal users right so we have actually have to think about how people who don't have a lot of onchain experience or assets how would they actually interact with the app what would they need to do I believe we have to kind of simplify the overall experience as well as well as making a lot of the things that we already have on the desktop much more app native in a simplified Okay.

And then continue to kind of do the things that I mentioned, returning as much, you know, value as possible to the users with the likes of of of Jupusd. But, I think overall mobile is is a very good push. The by the way what I mentioned around the Jupiter global the payment stack that will that will be launched in the coming weeks as well that will be also like on the obviously mobile first, right? because it doesn't make like any payment use case doesn't make sense on on desktop. So it's a it's primarily mobile experience and so for us very important to kind of integrate also those because this will extend much more into everyday use cases right not just swapping and you know doing your per trade leverage per trade etc but it's actually oh I I I have assets I have made money from my trades now what what do I do with it right I can pay for my phone noodles in Vietnam on a QR code that that would very cool as well as paying in a mall in Dubai or New York, right?

I think I think removing these kind of barriers, these historical barriers of what you can and cannot do with your onchain assets is a very exciting sort of product engineering user experience challenge that we like to set ourselves.

I think that's a great point. I guess maybe another area and I don't know that you've mentioned this one specifically but when I think about sort of the onchain super app idea and some of the things that teams within the space and and even within the fintech space have focused on from a product perspective like crypto cards have become something of a push lately like a lot of teams getting into the kind of like crypto debit and credit card space and if is that something that Jupiter is thinking about as well or is is that Jupiter global payment product like kind of in that you think that fits in that bucket basically.

Yeah, it will be one of the core pillars of to I don't want to kind of you know my our payment lead will kill me but I won't share too much alpha but I have the better version right so I I I already pay a lot of stuff car it is it is coming and it's going to be awesome can't wait to kind of like you know show more people and tell more people about what what we have sort of worked out there But yeah, fully agree. Stable coin cards is one of the largest sort of growing areas, right? and and and I think there's like a lot of different players both legacy web 2 as well as onchain native that are sort of vying for market share and user adoption. And I think it's very healthy, right? because competition will you know drive down cost and and and increase user benefits and the the more user benefits there are the the better the adoption curve will be.

And so we want to kind of contribute our part to that equation leveraging our you know full stack onchain capabilities and powers to kind of build the best possible onchain native way to kind of do it. I'm sure that very large, you know, the revolutes of the of the world, they're looking at it as well. They want to explore stable coin rails to kind of lower their their their costs base and ultimately pass that on to to users. But I think there's like there's no one single truth and there will be like very very exciting innovation that that will come. We are we are quite committed to kind of really experiment that and to give the best experience not only for the user in in the US and and you know developed markets but we also like because our roots are you know Southeast Asia etc. We really also think about it from a global perspective from emerging markets and how can we actually return more financial utility and value to the unbanked for example or the you know people who don't traditionally have access to to traditional finance or or banking infrastructure uh uh you know merchants as well as users.

And so we're very excited about stuff around QR payments. I think that's probably not a focus for some of the players that are that are in more developed markets. But in that vein, we want to kind of like we like to do